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Simon Prentis Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> And I'm arguing that it happened independently of
> that because the initial emergence of language
> (insofar as it began with the simple -- and
> gradual -- process of digitization) would not have
> required any specific biological, cultural or
> physiological event to get started. To my mind,
> the idea that it would have is an 'ideological'
> belief that has no evidential basis.

Okay if what you are saying is true then you have to define the process of digitalization. You are saying it did not require some gradual cultural, biological or genetic innovation to get started, then what started it? if it did not start with an event that gradually snowballed into more and more cultural, biological or physiological events that accumulated then you have to be able to pinpoint what started the digitalization process if that is what it was. If you are saying it just happened independently of anything, that is pretty ideological in my opinion. Like just by accident?

Can you pinpoint approximately when it started and what preceded it?

> But how would hunting technique have become better
> organised? The most likely and effective method
> would have been through the use of language. "Hide
> behind that tree while I drive the animal toward
> you."

Yeah, but lions and wolves can do that. Have you ever seen a wolf pack cooperate to kill an elk? Those kinds of communication and hunting strategies developed far before human language did. Couldn't it just have easily been the other way around that hunting technique and the need to develop ever more sophisticated ways of acquiring protein developed language and not the other way around? Doesn't it make more sense that the need to acquire protein cooperatively would have started that cascade of genetic and morphological changes that led to language?


> This the working academic assumption. But the
> initial process of digitisation did not need to
> rely on the typical noises that languages use now.
> Look at the wide range of phenomic contrasts used
> in the San (click) languages. And recent studies
> make clear that other species already have the
> capacity to make contrasting vowel sounds:
> [theconversation.com]
> -make-vowel-sounds-pushes-timeline-for-speech-evol
> ution-back-by-27-million-years-128514

But if speech evolved 27 million years ago as your cite suggests doesn't that by definition suggest that in 27 million years that would have been a slow cascade genetic, physiological and cultural changes in that time that would have selected for the kind of sophisticated language process that we have now or are you suggesting that language doesn't change and that it appeared preformed and digitalized from the beginning of human species and that language created civilization as it was already an inherent part of the human condition? If that is what you are saying I'm not so sure.

> Well, it depends on your time frame. A singularity
> doesn't have to happen in a literal instant. But
> in the big picture of the history of life on
> planet earth, the Cambrian explosion did take
> place in a relative instant. Just over 1% of the
> time over which life has been evolving, to be
> precise. It was a massive blip.

Well not really, that is very misleading. If you accept that life has been evolving on Earth for 3.8 billion years then you know that for approximately 3 billion years life was single celled organisms and primitive protozoa - little more than pond scum. Then an increase in oxygen in the atmosphere and warming oceans led to a increased possibility for expanded metabolism which allowed for a proliferation of radiative evolution. Changing environment and all that.

But if you take the 500 million years between the time of the Cambrian and now when oxygen content in the atmosphere allowed for large scale metabolism, all of a sudden the 25 or 30 or 50 million years of the Cambrian doesn't look so sudden in evolutionary terms.

You are not taking into account how long in Earth's history it took for Eukaryotic cells or multicellular life to evolve which took almost 75% of the time life has existed on this planet So in the 25% to 30% of the time since multicellular life has existed, the Cambrian to 2 to 5% of that to play out.

Seems about right on an evolutionary scale, right?



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 22-Sep-21 04:18 by Sirius7237.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 1353 Graham Hancock 07-Sep-21 11:10
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 152 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 21:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 141 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 22:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 160 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:49
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 114 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-21 21:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 105 Simon Prentis 11-Sep-21 21:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 116 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:42
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 152 cjcalleman 07-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 163 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 12:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 192 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 00:58
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 126 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 13:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 164 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 17:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 99 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 20:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 87 Susan Doris 09-Sep-21 05:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 149 cjcalleman 08-Sep-21 16:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 129 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 21:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 123 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 00:15
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 132 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 00:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 175 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 04:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 89 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:26
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 88 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 16:09
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 101 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 20:45
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 98 cjcalleman 10-Sep-21 17:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 134 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 20:34
Chemicals reacting 117 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Chemicals reacting 120 Eddie Larry 11-Sep-21 13:32
Re: Chemicals reacting 110 greengirl5 11-Sep-21 21:31
Re: Chemicals reacting 122 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 01:25
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 104 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 89 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 96 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 10:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 100 Susan Doris 13-Sep-21 05:07
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 128 Edmond 09-Sep-21 10:39
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 160 Eddie Larry 09-Sep-21 12:57
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 116 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:09
One original language 117 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 21:32
Re: One original language 127 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 23:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 106 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 01:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 95 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 17:47
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 162 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:15
Re: One original language 99 cjcalleman 12-Sep-21 19:52
Re: One original language 113 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 01:13
Re: One original language 95 cjcalleman 13-Sep-21 17:10
Re: One original language 110 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 21:33
Re: One original language 88 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:06
Re: One original language 110 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 13:01
Re: One original language 91 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:09
Re: One original language 102 cjcalleman 14-Sep-21 15:31
Re: One original language 86 Simon Prentis 14-Sep-21 18:01
Clever animals, clever us! 92 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 22:33
Re: One original language 112 cjcalleman 15-Sep-21 17:57
Re: One original language 93 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 05:23
Re: One original language 84 Eddie Larry 16-Sep-21 15:27
Re: One original language 140 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 16:27
Re: One original language 92 cjcalleman 16-Sep-21 17:32
Re: One original language 98 Susan Doris 17-Sep-21 05:22
The tortoise and the hare 141 Eddie Larry 17-Sep-21 16:28
Re: The tortoise and the hare 83 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 17:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare 73 Eddie Larry 18-Sep-21 18:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare 131 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 19:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare 96 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare 127 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 120 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare 94 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 14:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 125 cjcalleman 19-Sep-21 19:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare 123 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 22:52
Re: The tortoise and the hare 141 Glass Jigsaw 20-Sep-21 03:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 83 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:17
Respect for Simon 116 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 07:17
Re: Respect for Simon 118 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 08:36
Re: Respect for Simon 120 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:24
You just gish galloped again 97 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 18:28
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 175 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:37
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 112 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Ray???????? 119 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 108 Glass Jigsaw 21-Sep-21 23:04
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 143 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:30
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 103 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:01
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 86 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:44
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 85 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 16:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 79 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 16:38
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 75 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:37
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 71 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:25
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 72 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 18:27
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 76 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 72 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 02:34
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 80 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:24
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 71 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:20
Re: Respect for Simon 92 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:41
Re: The tortoise and the hare 136 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:17
Re: The tortoise and the hare 76 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:55
Re: The tortoise and the hare 102 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 111 Edmond 20-Sep-21 12:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 126 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 14:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 99 cjcalleman 20-Sep-21 17:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 112 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:32
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 76 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 07:24
Origin of language 116 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:08
Re: Origin of language 77 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:11
Re: Origin of language 80 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 12:35
Re: Origin of language 74 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:02
Re: Origin of language 67 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:19
Re: Origin of language 65 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 70 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:58
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 60 Aine 27-Sep-21 15:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 74 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 77 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 76 cjcalleman 21-Sep-21 18:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 120 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 23:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 76 cjcalleman 22-Sep-21 15:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 100 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 17:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 70 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 05:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 11:43
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 117 cjcalleman 24-Sep-21 15:46
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 105 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 22:02
The structure of scientific revolutions 113 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 02:21
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 82 Edmond 25-Sep-21 09:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 85 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 11:44
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 108 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 15:45
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 77 Edmond 27-Sep-21 07:24
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 72 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 10:37
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 64 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 16:07
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 68 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:04
Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 70 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 18:58
Re: Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 105 Susan Doris 28-Sep-21 05:09
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 68 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 16:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 70 Aine 27-Sep-21 17:31
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 62 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 17:54
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 62 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:14
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 67 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 71 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 23:47
Jung 71 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:56
Re: Jung 68 Eddie Larry 29-Sep-21 23:02
archertypes 71 drrayeye 28-Sep-21 23:24
Re: archertypes 81 Susan Doris 29-Sep-21 05:30
Simon's book 64 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:44
Re: Simon's book 60 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 75 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 09:56
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 81 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:18
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 102 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 18:27
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 88 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:41
Re: Show one example of me gish galloping, ray - one example??. 85 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 23:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 125 Susan Doris 26-Sep-21 04:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 139 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 18:57
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 85 drrayeye 26-Sep-21 14:26
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 66 Aine 26-Sep-21 23:50
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 100 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 109 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 75 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:48
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 101 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:33
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 116 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 74 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 23:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 73 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 23:45
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 72 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:06
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 99 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 01:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 75 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 86 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 95 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 14:19
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 77 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 19:08
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 123 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 20:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 123 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 21:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 119 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 21:24
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 114 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 116 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 19:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 99 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 15:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Edmond 21-Sep-21 07:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 89 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 10:36
some perspective 91 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 17:42
Is it just me... 122 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 00:44
Re: Is it just me... 88 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:56
Re: Is it just me... 124 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:38
Re: Is it just me... 116 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 04:04
Re: Is it just me... 126 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 11:44
Re: Is it just me... 75 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 22:39
Re: Is it just me... 110 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 14:01
Re: Is it just me... 76 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Is it just me... 92 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:09
Terrific! 74 drrayeye 22-Sep-21 01:36
Re: Is it just me... 88 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:00
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 98 Edmond 22-Sep-21 09:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 128 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 104 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 17:47
Re: The tortoise and the hare 81 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare 75 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare 67 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:23
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 83 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 60 Sirius7237 29-Sep-21 02:31
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen and time 101 Edmond 30-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the snowshoe hare 128 Sirius7237 01-Oct-21 18:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 71 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare 80 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:50
Re: One original language 84 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:16
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 135 drrayeye 09-Sep-21 19:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 104 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 21:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Do Re Mi 135 Edmond 10-Sep-21 09:37
Re: Do Re Mi 106 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:09
Re: Do Re Mi 111 Susan Doris 10-Sep-21 15:38
Re: Do Re Mi 103 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 18:08
Re: Do Re Mi 79 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:07
Re: Do Re Mi 92 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 07:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 100 Christine 10-Sep-21 10:33
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 90 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:27
Re: Strange similarity? 118 Sirius7237 10-Sep-21 16:37
Re: Strange similarity? 126 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 21:01
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 109 Edmond 10-Sep-21 17:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 117 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:18
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 146 Sirius7237 11-Sep-21 15:57
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 128 Edmond 12-Sep-21 09:23
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 90 Susan Doris 12-Sep-21 09:56
Re: Indus and Harappan script as emblems 70 Edmond 28-Sep-21 09:34
The word became flesh 137 Edmond 11-Sep-21 08:26
Re: The word became flesh 103 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 11:59
Archetype is also in language 93 Edmond 14-Sep-21 10:23
Re: Archetype is also in language 129 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:02
Thanks, Edmond 128 drrayeye 14-Sep-21 20:09
Re: Archetype is also in language 107 Simon Prentis 15-Sep-21 00:52
Archetype is also in language 86 Edmond 15-Sep-21 09:33
Re: Archetype is also in language 109 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 89 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 09:36
Swear words. 158 greengirl5 15-Sep-21 13:20
Re: Swear words. 76 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 10:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 74 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:49


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