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Edmond Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Archetype is best explained by Plato. No energy,
> matter, nature, ecology, species, consciousness or
> culture could exist outside its bounds.

That's a bold claim. Unless you have bold evidence, is there any reason why Hitchens' razor should not apply?

> In Plato's
> Cave analogy, experience and consciousness is a
> third-hand inference of a projection of reality,
> which projects archetype.

As I recall it, he explains that what we imagine reality to be is actually the shadows of 'reality' projected onto the wall of the cave by artists using a fire. That's all very well as an allegory, to explain the notion that things are not always what they seem. But if experience and consciousness are only ever a projection of reality, how are we ever to know that?

> Cognitive sciences
> recognise that sensory experience is filtered
> through brain apps. The senses and the brain
> repeat, rehearse, re-combine and seek advantages
> in the result.

I'd agree with you there. That is the process of evolution in a nutshell.

> The psychology theory of
> Confirmation Bias demonstrates the strength of
> wishful thinking (Wasson).

But that applies to us all. In particular I'd say it's an observation that can be applied to your own predilection for seeing the archetype in all things. I've had a look at some of your analyses, and given there is a great deal of uncertainty about the true meaning of, say, the inscriptions at Göbekli Tepe, your determination to see another manifestation of the archetype within them looks as much like a case of confirmation bias as any other.

> The Periodic Table has no origin other than
> archetype. Archetype has no origin. It is known
> only through its expressions.

These are big statements. What is the 'archetype' of the periodic table? The octaves? Quantum energy levels? The periodic table is the inevitable result of incremental digital increases in the atomic number and the maths of standing waves. I see no archetype here.

> The most common misconception to rectify, as Jung
> often did, is that archetype does not arise from
> experience or time. Episodes and time arise from
> expressions of archetype.

You may be convinced that you are right. But it's a big ask to expect that to be taken on trust, especially when it's hard to understand what that even means. "Episodes and time arise from expressions of the archetype"? How so?

> Consciousness is embedded in archetypal meaning.
> Language uses archetypal structure. Both are
> partial re-expressions, with stylistic options and
> a few incidental features.

Chomsky has spent some seven decades in pursuit of Universal Grammar, only to admit defeat. However enhanced by language, human consciousness may be subject to biological limits (we cannot hear as well as dogs, or see as well as eagles), but meaning is as varied as grammar, and we all have to work to find our own.

> Our innate capacity for correspondences, or
> gestalt, make two assumptions that interfere with
> the study of our media: that we supposedly develop
> things and meanings; and this 'development' is
> sustained by diffusion and memory. Thus the
> humanities, and linguistics, remain crafts instead
> of sciences. Follow Popper. Remove the
> assumptions. There is much to study in the results
> of our behaviour that is not 'evolutionary'.

With the greatest of respect, however, your 'archetype' is also an assumption. If it is known only through its expressions, it is essentially unknowable and invisible. Like God. And to quote the inestimable Delos Banning McKown, "The invisible and the non-existent look very much alike." It may indeed be that the rather brief history of human culture rehearses many tropes that recur in every era and region, but to the extent that they cannot be put down to the extraordinarily transmissive effect of language itself, they can often be understood through the science of game theory. There is indeed much still to study, as you say, but I fear your dogmatic statements do not really help the process.

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Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 1330 Graham Hancock 07-Sep-21 11:10
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 140 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 21:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 133 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 22:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 149 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:49
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 103 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-21 21:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 98 Simon Prentis 11-Sep-21 21:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 94 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:42
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 145 cjcalleman 07-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 149 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 12:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 184 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 00:58
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 119 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 13:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 150 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 17:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 90 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 20:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 80 Susan Doris 09-Sep-21 05:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 141 cjcalleman 08-Sep-21 16:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 120 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 21:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 116 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 00:15
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 123 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 00:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 163 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 04:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 79 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:26
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 81 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 16:09
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 20:45
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 cjcalleman 10-Sep-21 17:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 124 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 20:34
Chemicals reacting 107 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Chemicals reacting 113 Eddie Larry 11-Sep-21 13:32
Re: Chemicals reacting 101 greengirl5 11-Sep-21 21:31
Re: Chemicals reacting 113 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 01:25
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 95 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 81 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 88 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 10:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 Susan Doris 13-Sep-21 05:07
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 120 Edmond 09-Sep-21 10:39
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 150 Eddie Larry 09-Sep-21 12:57
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 107 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:09
One original language 109 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 21:32
Re: One original language 118 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 23:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 98 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 01:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 87 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 17:47
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 140 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:15
Re: One original language 91 cjcalleman 12-Sep-21 19:52
Re: One original language 103 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 01:13
Re: One original language 87 cjcalleman 13-Sep-21 17:10
Re: One original language 100 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 21:33
Re: One original language 79 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:06
Re: One original language 99 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 13:01
Re: One original language 82 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:09
Re: One original language 93 cjcalleman 14-Sep-21 15:31
Re: One original language 78 Simon Prentis 14-Sep-21 18:01
Clever animals, clever us! 86 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 22:33
Re: One original language 94 cjcalleman 15-Sep-21 17:57
Re: One original language 83 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 05:23
Re: One original language 74 Eddie Larry 16-Sep-21 15:27
Re: One original language 123 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 16:27
Re: One original language 83 cjcalleman 16-Sep-21 17:32
Re: One original language 90 Susan Doris 17-Sep-21 05:22
The tortoise and the hare 131 Eddie Larry 17-Sep-21 16:28
Re: The tortoise and the hare 73 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 17:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare 65 Eddie Larry 18-Sep-21 18:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare 122 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 19:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare 88 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare 120 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 112 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare 86 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 14:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 114 cjcalleman 19-Sep-21 19:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare 113 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 22:52
Re: The tortoise and the hare 131 Glass Jigsaw 20-Sep-21 03:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 73 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:17
Respect for Simon 107 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 07:17
Re: Respect for Simon 107 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 08:36
Re: Respect for Simon 110 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:24
You just gish galloped again 87 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 18:28
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 164 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:37
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 104 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Ray???????? 107 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 99 Glass Jigsaw 21-Sep-21 23:04
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 125 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:30
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 92 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:01
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 77 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:44
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 77 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 16:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 70 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 16:38
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 66 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:37
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 62 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:25
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 64 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 18:27
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 68 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 63 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 02:34
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 70 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:24
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 62 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:20
Re: Respect for Simon 81 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:41
Re: The tortoise and the hare 127 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:17
Re: The tortoise and the hare 67 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:55
Re: The tortoise and the hare 92 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 102 Edmond 20-Sep-21 12:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 115 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 14:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 cjcalleman 20-Sep-21 17:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:32
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 68 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 07:24
Origin of language 101 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:08
Re: Origin of language 69 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:11
Re: Origin of language 72 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 12:35
Re: Origin of language 66 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:02
Re: Origin of language 59 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:19
Re: Origin of language 59 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 62 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 62 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:58
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 53 Aine 27-Sep-21 15:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 69 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 61 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 71 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 70 cjcalleman 21-Sep-21 18:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 23:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 72 cjcalleman 22-Sep-21 15:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 93 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 17:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 64 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 05:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 86 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 11:43
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 107 cjcalleman 24-Sep-21 15:46
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 99 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 22:02
The structure of scientific revolutions 106 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 02:21
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 75 Edmond 25-Sep-21 09:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 80 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 11:44
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 90 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 15:45
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 71 Edmond 27-Sep-21 07:24
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 66 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 10:37
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 59 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 16:07
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:04
Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 64 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 18:58
Re: Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 94 Susan Doris 28-Sep-21 05:09
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 16:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 64 Aine 27-Sep-21 17:31
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 56 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 17:54
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 57 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:14
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 63 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 23:47
Jung 62 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:56
Re: Jung 60 Eddie Larry 29-Sep-21 23:02
archertypes 65 drrayeye 28-Sep-21 23:24
Re: archertypes 74 Susan Doris 29-Sep-21 05:30
Simon's book 55 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:44
Re: Simon's book 55 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 69 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 09:56
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 74 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:18
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 96 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 18:27
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 79 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:41
Re: Show one example of me gish galloping, ray - one example??. 77 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 23:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 115 Susan Doris 26-Sep-21 04:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 116 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 18:57
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 78 drrayeye 26-Sep-21 14:26
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 61 Aine 26-Sep-21 23:50
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 101 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 69 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:48
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 92 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:33
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 107 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 23:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 23:45
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 66 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:06
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 01:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 68 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 79 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 88 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 14:19
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 70 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 19:08
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 116 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 20:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 104 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 21:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 112 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 21:24
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 109 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 19:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 15:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 82 Edmond 21-Sep-21 07:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 81 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 10:36
some perspective 85 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 17:42
Is it just me... 116 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 00:44
Re: Is it just me... 80 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:56
Re: Is it just me... 114 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:38
Re: Is it just me... 109 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 04:04
Re: Is it just me... 118 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 11:44
Re: Is it just me... 70 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 22:39
Re: Is it just me... 101 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 14:01
Re: Is it just me... 69 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Is it just me... 86 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:09
Terrific! 67 drrayeye 22-Sep-21 01:36
Re: Is it just me... 83 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:00
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 Edmond 22-Sep-21 09:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 109 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 98 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 17:47
Re: The tortoise and the hare 71 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare 67 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare 60 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:23
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 75 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 54 Sirius7237 29-Sep-21 02:31
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen and time 90 Edmond 30-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the snowshoe hare 117 Sirius7237 01-Oct-21 18:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 61 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare 72 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:50
Re: One original language 77 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:16
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 127 drrayeye 09-Sep-21 19:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 98 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 21:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Do Re Mi 125 Edmond 10-Sep-21 09:37
Re: Do Re Mi 99 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:09
Re: Do Re Mi 106 Susan Doris 10-Sep-21 15:38
Re: Do Re Mi 97 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 18:08
Re: Do Re Mi 71 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:07
Re: Do Re Mi 87 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 07:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 93 Christine 10-Sep-21 10:33
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 83 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:27
Re: Strange similarity? 106 Sirius7237 10-Sep-21 16:37
Re: Strange similarity? 118 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 21:01
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 104 Edmond 10-Sep-21 17:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 109 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:18
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 140 Sirius7237 11-Sep-21 15:57
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 122 Edmond 12-Sep-21 09:23
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 85 Susan Doris 12-Sep-21 09:56
Re: Indus and Harappan script as emblems 62 Edmond 28-Sep-21 09:34
The word became flesh 128 Edmond 11-Sep-21 08:26
Re: The word became flesh 95 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 11:59
Archetype is also in language 86 Edmond 14-Sep-21 10:23
Re: Archetype is also in language 121 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:02
Thanks, Edmond 122 drrayeye 14-Sep-21 20:09
Re: Archetype is also in language 100 Simon Prentis 15-Sep-21 00:52
Archetype is also in language 79 Edmond 15-Sep-21 09:33
Re: Archetype is also in language 103 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 82 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 09:36
Swear words. 148 greengirl5 15-Sep-21 13:20
Re: Swear words. 72 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 10:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 66 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:49


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