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cjcalleman Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Well, even Gaudis remarkable Sagrada Familia has
> underlying straight lines
> pointing to the sky and I would certainly not
> exclude perfect circles from the
> geometry that was downloaded in two steps 8240 and
> 3115 BCE.

What evidence, other than your interpretation of the Mayan calendar, do you have for this? Downloaded? From where?

> Personally I think geometry comes before numbers
> and is a prerequisite
> for their existence in our current minds and if
> language is a product of the digitalization
> of phonemes geometry (not already present in our
> brains) would be a pre-requisite
> also for language.

As someone once wisely said, you are entitled to your own opinions, but not to your own facts. The digitization (not 'digitalization', note -- there is a difference) of analog animal sounds required nothing more than learning to combine a set of existing sounds, which offers the ability to create an almost unlimited number of easily-remembered 'words'. Our DNA managed the trick of digitization without needing a brain at all. I'd agree that geometry was a key driver for the development of maths (see Euclid) but you don't need geometry to get to simple numbers. How would that actually work?

> The reason the human brain has
> a potential for language
> that animals do not have is not in its size, but
> in its geometry. Hence, it is much more spherical
> than in
> any other animal and its pineal gland is in the
> center of the head,
> which allows it to create resonance not only with
> the spherical earth, but then on
> to the galaxy and the cosmos. Without this kind of
> geometric resonance animals
> are not able to clearly download the yin/yang
> dualities that underlie counting and
> language.

To characterise a human brain as 'spherical' is a big stretch. Our cranium is more like a rugby ball stuffed with pale sausages. And I think you'll find a dolphin brain, for example, is much closer to being spherical than a human brain.

To think of lines as "abstractions" does
> not explain the fact that they are
> absent in the brain. How could a brain that has no
> straight line by itself
> even be able to conceive of a straight line.

By observing a sunbeam, perhaps? Or simply looking at a distant point and imagining the quickest way to get there? Birds seem to have little trouble in flying in a straight line to get to where they're going. There's an interesting article that explores the actual behaviour of animals here: [appliedecologistsblog.com]

> Yes, there are some straight crystals in nature
> (including in the pineal gland)
> but you really have to look hard to find them and
> it is hard for me to see that such small objects
> would have been able to inspire the building of
> the pyramids.

But by the time it came to build the pyramids, we were well into an understanding of geometry.

> What is your own explanation to why only humans
> have the ability
> to create language (leaving aside minor
> exceptions)?

My argument is that once the habit of using digital combinations of a limited number of sounds became established, it led to an exponential growth in vocabulary, the sharing of information, and the pooling of intelligence. Though this surely happened over periods of time that are hard to grasp from the perspective of a human lifetime, from an evolutionary perspective it would have sparked a rapid change, which we see reflected in the growth of the human brain -- for which there is currently no plausible explanation. You are entitled to believe this was the result of downloading some unspecified cosmic paradigm, but without any practical understanding of how that might actually have worked, it really leaves us no better off than we are with Chomsky, or the Bible.

> The problem with unifying relativity and quantum
> theory incidentally
> has somewhat the same dilemma underlying our
> discussion, namely,
> that geometrical time and space are not really
> physical categories existing "out there"
> independently of the human mind as relativity
> theory presumes.

It may be that nothing exists 'out there', and that everything is just a figment of our imaginations -- but the presumption that space and time are real categories has undeniably led to some pretty spectacular results in terms of human civilization. It has certainly been a great deal more help to us in terms of helping ordinary people to travel, communicate and receive effective and reliable medical treatment than trusting to the power of prayer. After all, we wouldn't be able to be doing this now if it weren't for the presumption that quantum physics and relativity are 'real'.

> As you are saying the devil is in the details and
> maybe one day some
> will discover how much detail there is in this
> theory. Most people are
> content with questioning bits and pieces of the
> currently dominating
> paradigm, not all at once.

You're right, and we should all be challenging accepted wisdom more than we do -- especially where there are theoretical inconsistencies that make no sense. But humans find it easier to live with a nice tidy solution than struggle with the resulting cognitive dissonance. That too is the result of language -- a dilemma I explore in the second half of my book.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 1329 Graham Hancock 07-Sep-21 11:10
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 140 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 21:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 133 greengirl5 07-Sep-21 22:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 149 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:49
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 103 Glass Jigsaw 10-Sep-21 21:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 98 Simon Prentis 11-Sep-21 21:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 94 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 11:42
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 145 cjcalleman 07-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 149 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 12:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 183 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 00:58
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 119 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 13:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 150 Susan Doris 08-Sep-21 17:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 90 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 20:37
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 80 Susan Doris 09-Sep-21 05:13
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 141 cjcalleman 08-Sep-21 16:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 120 Simon Prentis 08-Sep-21 21:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 116 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 00:15
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 123 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 00:48
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 163 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 04:53
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 79 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:26
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 81 cjcalleman 09-Sep-21 16:09
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 20:45
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 cjcalleman 10-Sep-21 17:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 124 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 20:34
Chemicals reacting 107 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:47
Re: Chemicals reacting 113 Eddie Larry 11-Sep-21 13:32
Re: Chemicals reacting 101 greengirl5 11-Sep-21 21:31
Re: Chemicals reacting 113 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 01:25
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 95 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:59
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 81 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 05:51
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 88 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 10:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 91 Susan Doris 13-Sep-21 05:07
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 120 Edmond 09-Sep-21 10:39
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 150 Eddie Larry 09-Sep-21 12:57
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 107 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 18:09
One original language 109 greengirl5 09-Sep-21 21:32
Re: One original language 118 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 23:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 98 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 01:56
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 87 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 17:47
Re: One original language - I just finished your book! 139 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 22:15
Re: One original language 91 cjcalleman 12-Sep-21 19:52
Re: One original language 103 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 01:13
Re: One original language 87 cjcalleman 13-Sep-21 17:10
Re: One original language 100 Simon Prentis 13-Sep-21 21:33
Re: One original language 79 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:06
Re: One original language 99 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 13:01
Re: One original language 82 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:09
Re: One original language 93 cjcalleman 14-Sep-21 15:31
Re: One original language 77 Simon Prentis 14-Sep-21 18:01
Clever animals, clever us! 86 greengirl5 14-Sep-21 22:33
Re: One original language 94 cjcalleman 15-Sep-21 17:57
Re: One original language 83 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 05:23
Re: One original language 74 Eddie Larry 16-Sep-21 15:27
Re: One original language 123 Susan Doris 16-Sep-21 16:27
Re: One original language 83 cjcalleman 16-Sep-21 17:32
Re: One original language 90 Susan Doris 17-Sep-21 05:22
The tortoise and the hare 130 Eddie Larry 17-Sep-21 16:28
Re: The tortoise and the hare 73 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 17:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare 65 Eddie Larry 18-Sep-21 18:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare 121 cjcalleman 18-Sep-21 19:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare 88 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare 120 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 112 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare 86 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 14:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 114 cjcalleman 19-Sep-21 19:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare 113 Sirius7237 19-Sep-21 22:52
Re: The tortoise and the hare 131 Glass Jigsaw 20-Sep-21 03:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare 73 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:17
Respect for Simon 107 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 07:17
Re: Respect for Simon 107 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 08:36
Re: Respect for Simon 110 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:24
You just gish galloped again 87 drrayeye 20-Sep-21 18:28
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 164 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:37
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 104 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Ray???????? 107 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:52
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 99 Glass Jigsaw 21-Sep-21 23:04
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 125 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:30
Re: Still waiting, Ray???????? 92 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:01
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 77 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:44
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 77 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 16:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 70 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 16:38
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 66 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:37
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 62 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:25
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 63 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 18:27
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 68 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:04
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 63 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 02:34
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 70 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:24
Re: Just one example, Ray???????? 62 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:20
Re: Respect for Simon 81 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:41
Re: The tortoise and the hare 127 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:17
Re: The tortoise and the hare 67 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:55
Re: The tortoise and the hare 92 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 102 Edmond 20-Sep-21 12:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 115 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 14:03
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 cjcalleman 20-Sep-21 17:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:32
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 68 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 07:24
Origin of language 101 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:08
Re: Origin of language 69 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:11
Re: Origin of language 72 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 12:35
Re: Origin of language 66 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:02
Re: Origin of language 58 Aine 27-Sep-21 00:19
Re: Origin of language 59 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:36
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 62 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 62 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 05:58
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 53 Aine 27-Sep-21 15:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 69 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 61 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 71 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 69 cjcalleman 21-Sep-21 18:37
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 23:42
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 72 cjcalleman 22-Sep-21 15:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 93 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 17:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 64 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 05:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 86 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 11:43
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 107 cjcalleman 24-Sep-21 15:46
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 99 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 22:02
The structure of scientific revolutions 106 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 02:21
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 75 Edmond 25-Sep-21 09:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 79 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 11:44
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 90 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 15:45
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 70 Edmond 27-Sep-21 07:24
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 66 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 10:37
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 59 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 16:07
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Susan Doris 27-Sep-21 18:04
Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 64 drrayeye 27-Sep-21 18:58
Re: Gives Simon perspective on alternative POV's 94 Susan Doris 28-Sep-21 05:09
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 16:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 64 Aine 27-Sep-21 17:31
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 56 Eddie Larry 27-Sep-21 17:54
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 57 Aine 27-Sep-21 21:14
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 61 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:51
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions Catch 33 63 Eddie Larry 28-Sep-21 23:47
Jung 62 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:56
Re: Jung 60 Eddie Larry 29-Sep-21 23:02
archertypes 65 drrayeye 28-Sep-21 23:24
Re: archertypes 74 Susan Doris 29-Sep-21 05:30
Simon's book 55 drrayeye 29-Sep-21 19:44
Re: Simon's book 55 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 68 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 09:56
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 74 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:18
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 96 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 18:27
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 79 drrayeye 25-Sep-21 18:41
Re: Show one example of me gish galloping, ray - one example??. 77 Sirius7237 25-Sep-21 23:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 115 Susan Doris 26-Sep-21 04:34
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 116 Simon Prentis 25-Sep-21 18:57
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 78 drrayeye 26-Sep-21 14:26
Re: The structure of scientific revolutions 60 Aine 26-Sep-21 23:50
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Susan Doris 25-Sep-21 05:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 101 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 05:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 69 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:48
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 92 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 18:33
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 107 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 21:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 23:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 67 Simon Prentis 20-Sep-21 23:45
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 66 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:06
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 91 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 01:05
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 68 Susan Doris 21-Sep-21 05:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 79 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 15:40
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 88 Susan Doris 20-Sep-21 14:19
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 70 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 19:08
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 116 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 20:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 Sirius7237 20-Sep-21 21:04
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 112 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 21:24
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 103 Sirius7237 21-Sep-21 00:18
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 109 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 19:02
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 Eddie Larry 20-Sep-21 15:49
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 82 Edmond 21-Sep-21 07:39
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 81 Simon Prentis 21-Sep-21 10:36
some perspective 85 drrayeye 21-Sep-21 17:42
Is it just me... 116 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 00:44
Re: Is it just me... 80 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 00:56
Re: Is it just me... 114 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 01:38
Re: Is it just me... 109 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 04:04
Re: Is it just me... 118 Simon Prentis 22-Sep-21 11:44
Re: Is it just me... 69 Sirius7237 22-Sep-21 22:39
Re: Is it just me... 101 Simon Prentis 23-Sep-21 14:01
Re: Is it just me... 69 Susan Doris 23-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Is it just me... 85 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:09
Terrific! 67 drrayeye 22-Sep-21 01:36
Re: Is it just me... 83 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 06:00
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 90 Edmond 22-Sep-21 09:09
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 109 Susan Doris 22-Sep-21 13:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare, evolutionary paradigm problems 98 Eddie Larry 21-Sep-21 17:47
Re: The tortoise and the hare 71 Aine 27-Sep-21 01:16
Re: The tortoise and the hare 67 Sirius7237 28-Sep-21 03:21
Re: The tortoise and the hare 60 Aine 28-Sep-21 16:23
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 75 Edmond 28-Sep-21 08:59
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen 54 Sirius7237 29-Sep-21 02:31
Re: The tortoise and the hare with oxygen and time 90 Edmond 30-Sep-21 08:36
Re: The tortoise and the snowshoe hare 117 Sirius7237 01-Oct-21 18:10
Re: The tortoise and the hare 61 cjcalleman 28-Sep-21 18:01
Re: The tortoise and the hare 72 Susan Doris 19-Sep-21 04:50
Re: One original language 77 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 10:16
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 127 drrayeye 09-Sep-21 19:22
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 98 Simon Prentis 09-Sep-21 21:08
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Do Re Mi 125 Edmond 10-Sep-21 09:37
Re: Do Re Mi 99 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:09
Re: Do Re Mi 106 Susan Doris 10-Sep-21 15:38
Re: Do Re Mi 97 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 18:08
Re: Do Re Mi 71 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:07
Re: Do Re Mi 87 Susan Doris 11-Sep-21 07:03
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 93 Christine 10-Sep-21 10:33
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 83 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 14:27
Re: Strange similarity? 106 Sirius7237 10-Sep-21 16:37
Re: Strange similarity? 118 Simon Prentis 10-Sep-21 21:01
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 104 Edmond 10-Sep-21 17:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 109 greengirl5 10-Sep-21 23:18
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 140 Sirius7237 11-Sep-21 15:57
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 122 Edmond 12-Sep-21 09:23
Re: Scripts also use archetypal structure 85 Susan Doris 12-Sep-21 09:56
Re: Indus and Harappan script as emblems 62 Edmond 28-Sep-21 09:34
The word became flesh 128 Edmond 11-Sep-21 08:26
Re: The word became flesh 95 Simon Prentis 12-Sep-21 11:59
Archetype is also in language 86 Edmond 14-Sep-21 10:23
Re: Archetype is also in language 121 Susan Doris 14-Sep-21 13:02
Thanks, Edmond 122 drrayeye 14-Sep-21 20:09
Re: Archetype is also in language 100 Simon Prentis 15-Sep-21 00:52
Archetype is also in language 79 Edmond 15-Sep-21 09:33
Re: Archetype is also in language 103 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 15:05
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 82 Susan Doris 15-Sep-21 09:36
Swear words. 148 greengirl5 15-Sep-21 13:20
Re: Swear words. 72 Simon Prentis 24-Sep-21 10:04
Re: Welcome to Simon Prentis Author of the Month for September 2021 66 Susan Doris 30-Sep-21 05:49


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