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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 503 cloister 06-Aug-19 04:28
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 517 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 cloister 07-Aug-19 10:54
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 439 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:55
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 451 Martinsw1 07-Aug-19 20:28
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 450 Martinsw1 07-Aug-19 21:28
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 477 Edmond 08-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 442 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:35
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 443 Barbelo 09-Aug-19 01:15
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 457 Edmond 09-Aug-19 16:51
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 449 Eddie Larry 07-Aug-19 22:52
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 421 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 513 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 17:32
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 464 Martinsw1 07-Aug-19 14:10
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 430 Susan Doris 07-Aug-19 15:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 422 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 477 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 412 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 473 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 454 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 429 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 417 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 409 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 400 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 405 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 479 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
Props to Corps 386 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 17:03
Great job! 404 drrayeye 12-Aug-19 18:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 445 Corpuscles 09-Aug-19 01:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 405 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 418 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:46
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 432 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 506 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 418 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 12:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 452 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 514 unchartedxben 09-Aug-19 16:54
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Fall of a thousand suns 411 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 02:02
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 530 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 06:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 415 Eddie Larry 10-Aug-19 13:20
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 425 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 15:16
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 421 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 416 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 23:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 410 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 08:49
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 407 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 407 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 18:18
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 402 Barbelo 13-Aug-19 23:46
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 406 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 404 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 404 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:26
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 401 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 21:09
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 391 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 21:55
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 396 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 412 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 395 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 14:24
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 407 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 15:56
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 432 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 401 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
The rest of us 428 drrayeye 15-Aug-19 19:28
Little stone in the middle of nowhere 405 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 392 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 387 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 398 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 483 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 480 Edmond 12-Aug-19 10:13
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 419 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 439 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:33
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 426 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:44
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 426 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:46
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 411 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:40
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 415 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:11
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Re: Lost or last civilisation? 399 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 00:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 434 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 08:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 419 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 23:01
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Re: Planet destruction 402 Corpuscles 13-Aug-19 01:50
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Re: Planet destruction 398 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 06:11
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 439 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:49
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 437 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 11:02
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 Rebecca Bradley 14-Aug-19 06:56
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 491 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 431 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 424 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 429 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 438 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 435 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 425 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 432 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 422 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 449 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 451 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 427 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 445 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 399 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 407 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 398 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 382 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 398 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 409 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 391 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 389 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
Support for Mrs. O'Leary's "milk factory" (in song) 365 drrayeye 21-Aug-19 00:55
Re: coming from a casual gambler 364 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 21:36
Re: coming from a casual gambler 392 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 373 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 00:03
Re: coming from a casual reader 374 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 377 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 02:23
Re: coming from a casual reader 383 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 357 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 378 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 396 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 375 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 385 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 372 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 402 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 410 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 389 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 377 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 380 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 372 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 388 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 411 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 428 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 430 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 405 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 387 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 375 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 394 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 390 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 397 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 386 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 395 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 407 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 414 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 429 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 403 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 429 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 390 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 380 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 375 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 373 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 362 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 367 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 365 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 352 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 369 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 378 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 397 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 369 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 389 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 410 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 385 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 395 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 389 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 371 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 393 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 392 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 417 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 433 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 394 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 425 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 400 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 430 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 460 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 431 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 448 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 438 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 425 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 418 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 401 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 410 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 407 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 404 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 413 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 407 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 408 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 404 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 387 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 395 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 398 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 398 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 389 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 406 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 410 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 400 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 474 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 419 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 437 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 401 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 389 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 407 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 393 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 401 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 409 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 396 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 423 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 431 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 418 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 466 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 452 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 385 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 900 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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