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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 484 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 385 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 441 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 380 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 436 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 419 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 396 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 372 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 387 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 374 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 371 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 368 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 439 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 379 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 398 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 416 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 371 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 372 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 369 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:26
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 366 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 374 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 400 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 368 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 360 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 352 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 364 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 447 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 400 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:21
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 391 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:46
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 377 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:40
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Re: Planet destruction 364 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 06:11
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 459 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 372 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 394 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 389 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 393 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 404 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 405 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 402 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 386 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 396 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 388 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 416 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 417 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 392 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 366 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 374 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 365 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 350 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 365 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 369 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 359 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 354 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual gambler 361 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
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Re: coming from a casual reader 344 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 348 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 327 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 350 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 364 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 345 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 351 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 340 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 368 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 379 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 354 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 347 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 352 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 343 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 355 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 371 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 395 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 397 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 374 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 357 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 344 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 362 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 360 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 365 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 350 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 362 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 376 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 379 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 397 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 371 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 385 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 358 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 345 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 340 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 340 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 328 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 334 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 334 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 317 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 337 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 345 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 366 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 336 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 360 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 379 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 355 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 364 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 356 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 340 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 365 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 359 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 385 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 398 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 358 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 390 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 367 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 400 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 428 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 401 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 411 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 398 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 392 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 383 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 372 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 373 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 374 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 371 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 378 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 372 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 374 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 372 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 353 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 363 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 368 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 371 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 358 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 372 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 377 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 371 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 443 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 385 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 405 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 367 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 360 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 374 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 364 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 369 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 375 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 368 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 391 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 403 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 388 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 428 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 417 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 349 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 857 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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