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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 619 cloister 06-Aug-19 04:28
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 634 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 554 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:55
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 564 Martinsw1 07-Aug-19 14:05
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 565 Martinsw1 07-Aug-19 21:28
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 560 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:35
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 575 Edmond 09-Aug-19 16:51
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 567 Eddie Larry 07-Aug-19 22:52
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 534 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 627 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 17:32
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 540 Susan Doris 07-Aug-19 15:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 556 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 537 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 593 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 530 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 590 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 569 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 542 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 517 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 533 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 522 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 514 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 522 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 624 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 520 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
Props to Corps 496 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 17:03
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 554 Corpuscles 09-Aug-19 01:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 515 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 536 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:46
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 563 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 547 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 616 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 567 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 632 unchartedxben 09-Aug-19 16:54
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Fall of a thousand suns 522 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 02:02
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 651 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 06:05
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 542 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 15:16
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 528 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 08:49
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 520 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 18:18
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 517 Barbelo 13-Aug-19 23:46
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 522 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 518 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 519 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:26
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 517 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 21:09
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 509 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 21:55
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 508 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 529 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 509 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 14:24
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 527 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 15:56
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 546 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 519 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 508 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 498 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 514 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 598 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 602 Edmond 12-Aug-19 10:13
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 536 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 577 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:21
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 546 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:44
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 541 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:46
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Re: Lost or last civilisation? 511 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 00:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 556 Rebecca Bradley 14-Aug-19 06:56
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 603 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 522 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 545 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 538 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 555 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 548 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 553 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 551 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 540 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 548 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 543 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 561 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 570 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 545 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 565 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 508 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 522 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 510 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 493 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 510 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 524 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 502 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 496 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual gambler 501 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 478 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 00:03
Re: coming from a casual reader 479 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 486 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 02:23
Re: coming from a casual reader 492 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 463 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 482 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 502 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 480 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 499 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 478 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 513 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 523 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 494 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 485 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 486 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 483 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 496 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 543 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 538 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 541 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 512 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 496 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 479 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 511 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 493 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 503 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 495 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 510 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 510 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 520 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 538 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 505 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 613 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 499 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 484 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 485 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 477 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 473 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 472 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 478 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 455 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 474 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 479 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 509 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 474 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 497 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 514 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 491 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 499 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 496 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 478 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 503 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 496 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 528 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 538 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 499 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 533 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 510 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 536 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 570 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 535 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 558 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 574 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 534 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 520 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 504 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 524 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 516 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 513 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 525 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 521 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 517 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 512 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 488 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 507 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 500 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 510 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 495 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 523 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 515 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 511 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 584 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 519 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 545 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 508 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 495 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 509 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 505 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 510 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 518 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 500 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 531 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 537 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 524 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 576 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 565 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 502 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 1053 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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