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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 407 cloister 06-Aug-19 04:28
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 418 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 341 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:55
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 349 Barbelo 09-Aug-19 01:15
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 359 Edmond 09-Aug-19 16:51
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 326 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 346 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 332 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 378 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 322 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 375 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 360 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 335 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 312 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 326 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 315 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 307 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 309 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 368 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 320 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 336 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 414 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 353 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 313 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 309 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 311 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:26
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 308 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 314 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 333 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 307 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
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Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 301 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 294 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 305 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 373 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 333 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:46
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 399 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 310 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 337 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 328 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 328 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 347 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 344 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 341 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 328 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 334 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 321 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 357 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 355 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 329 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 343 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 310 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
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Re: coming from a casual reader 304 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 292 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 306 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
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Re: 280 million years 302 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 299 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
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Re: coming from a casual reader 290 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 271 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 290 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 306 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 292 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 292 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 287 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 310 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 317 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 299 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 294 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 297 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 287 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 297 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 305 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 330 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 338 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 321 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 300 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 289 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 301 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 303 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 307 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 295 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 308 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 315 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 319 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 335 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 315 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 326 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 301 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 288 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 284 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 284 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 271 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 278 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 277 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 260 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 283 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 287 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
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Re: Research design perspective 282 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 300 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 325 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 302 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 307 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 297 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 284 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 306 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 301 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 327 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 338 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 299 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 328 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 308 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 345 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 370 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 348 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 352 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 334 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 335 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 329 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 316 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 312 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 317 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 317 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 311 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 312 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 320 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 316 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 293 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 305 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 312 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 317 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 302 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 316 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 321 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 311 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 387 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
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Re: The Zodiac 337 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 308 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 300 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 320 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 307 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 315 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 316 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 313 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 333 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 339 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 334 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 371 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 359 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 291 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 771 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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