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Rebecca Bradley Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Martin, that's hardly accurate. The last time we
> exchanged views was all of six months ago; a
> friend told me you were on GH's site, which I
> don't normally visit. I could also point out that
> you were the one who first dived, and rather
> aggressively, into the comments on my blog.

Hi Rebecca

First, let me say that I know none of the history between the two of you. However, if Martin responded to an article written by you, that likened his research to a random Walt Disney image, I and, I would think most others, could hardly blame him for wanting to respond swiftly and firmly.


That said, I would like to address you directly on some items that I believe now clearly form the basis of his exploratory work.

1. As I see things, the main reason why Martin and others have decided to rigorously explore the possibility that Gobekli Tepi's animals may represent constellations, is because credentialed archaeologists and historians, like yourself, are of the firm opinion that the Ancients were very interested in the stars.

And so I ask my first question, Rebecca. Do you think that's a reasonable possibility? Yes or no? If no, are you then willing to state, on public record, that you think the whole notion of the "Ancients" making celestial art forms is ridiculous, the kind of off-the-wall premise that really does warrant a Walt Disney parody?


2. I will predict that your answer will be a firm yes. In which case you must concede that Martin's starting point IS reasonable, at least in this regard.

So, then there's the matter of Martin arbitrarily choosing a place in the heavens as a starting point. Surely, you would also agree that the equinox and solstices are among the better choices, and not really "arbitrary" since the Ancients are known to have placed much emphasis on these four positions?

I'm going to guess that you will say yes to this as well, which means that you have accepted Martin's first premise as reasonable, based on ample precedent, and the second, also based on ample precedent.

(The only problem I see at this point, is Martin's mentioning that the mortar on 43, which dates to around 9600 BC, is apparently about 1,000 years off of his proposed match. (Correct me, if I am wrongly paraphrasing here.) I can see why people would strongly object to that, but at this point it seems too early to dismiss his thesis based on what we know about GT. If, at present, there is much disagreement between academics regarding dating, then nobody really is in a position to say that they know Martin must be wrong.)


3. So let's move on, to his test. Martin has already directly acknowledged that he is working with a subjective premise, in presupposing that GT's animals 'may' represent constellations. But does he offer a setting which can be explored objectively, to a significant extent? Perhaps, since GT offers a fixed set of animals, from which hard numbers can be derived, depending on one's test.

As I understand it, the test Martin offers is a very straightforward one that goes like this.

Which one of the following letters look the most like the small letter 'b': Rank them 1 through 5, with 1 being the best match, and 5 being the worst. d , p, s, v, z

What about i:
o z l k x

When one isolates an individual, it becomes very easy to say that whatever ranking they concoct is "purely subjective" (with unstated emphasis on 'pure', usually). But given the choices, common sense predicts that we can strongly expect the rankings to be consistently and significantly skewed in favor of d and p in the first place, and l in the second.

Conversely, anyone who might say that z looks more like b than d, or p, is likely to be so in the minority that others would ask if they are even being serious in making such a claim. I think that you know these, Rebecca. Accordingly, if your goal is to bring down Martin's thesis, you have everything to lose by taking this test.

Strong group consensus lends perception a certain degree of objectivity that is impervious to these kinds of tired, "it's all in the individual's head" criticisms. No longer are we being purely subjective, when the majority says they share the same general conclusions. And since Martin's test has us dealing with a fixed number of choices, from this one can make statistical conclusions that are objectively grounded, to a significant extent, depending on how skewed the results are.

And since other people's rankings will be in general agreement, it is entirely reasonable for Martin to say the expected consensus will very likely be crushingly improbable, which in turn fuels the suggestion that the art on 43 is very possibly nonrandom and tied to the stars.


My one main issue with Martin's idea at this point, is the apparent time difference - a thousand years? - between the mortar dating on 43 vs when the skies matched what he was proposing. That seems like a significant difference, but I would assume that we're still very early into the dating of GT, which is to say that there might be ample wiggle room for Martin to be right at this point. However, and to a point I made earlier, it would appear that presently nobody is well-informed enough to say that one dating is clearly the best one, in a way that appeals to the academic consensus. Simply put, it's probably too early to rule out Martin's premises based on a perceived 1,000-year margin of error.

For all of these reasons I now think that it is quite baseless to insinuate that Martin is deluded and worthy of ridicule, for pursuing his thesis. Like I said, I don't know you, or your history with Martin, Rebecca. But looking in from the outside, I am astonished that such a well-credentialed academic would caricature anybody, let alone another academic, as you did with your Mickey Mouse art.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Aug-19 17:28 by Poster Boy.

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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 563 Martinsw1 06-Aug-19 09:00
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 480 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 14:55
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Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 486 Barbelo 09-Aug-19 01:15
Re: Sweatman's diluted pseudo archaeo astronomy 502 Edmond 09-Aug-19 16:51
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 491 Eddie Larry 07-Aug-19 22:52
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 462 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 20:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 554 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 17:32
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 485 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 04:15
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 463 Martinsw1 08-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 520 Merrell 08-Aug-19 08:29
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 458 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 518 Rebecca Bradley 08-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 500 PB Bytes 08-Aug-19 18:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 472 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 446 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:34
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 461 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 05:57
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 452 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:45
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 445 Corpuscles 10-Aug-19 22:37
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 449 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 538 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 15:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 450 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 05:58
Props to Corps 428 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 17:03
Great job! 452 drrayeye 12-Aug-19 18:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 486 Corpuscles 09-Aug-19 01:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 444 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured NONSENSE author for August 2019 464 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 03:46
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 488 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 476 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 10:01
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 545 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 10:40
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 460 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 12:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 495 Martinsw1 09-Aug-19 13:07
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 561 unchartedxben 09-Aug-19 16:54
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Fall of a thousand suns 454 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 02:02
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 574 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 06:05
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 469 Rebecca Bradley 10-Aug-19 15:16
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 464 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:42
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 455 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 08:49
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Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 448 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 18:18
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 444 Barbelo 13-Aug-19 23:46
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 449 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 00:12
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 448 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 04:03
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 447 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:26
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 444 Barbelo 14-Aug-19 21:09
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 438 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 21:55
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 436 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 03:19
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 456 Barbelo 15-Aug-19 04:28
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 436 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 14:24
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 455 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 15:56
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 475 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 16:49
Re: A Sealed Deal? Of Course You Jest 447 Eddie Larry 15-Aug-19 18:35
The rest of us 475 drrayeye 15-Aug-19 19:28
Little stone in the middle of nowhere 444 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 438 PB Bytes 15-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 427 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 23:54
Re: Little stone in the middle of nowhere 443 greengirl5 16-Aug-19 00:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 526 Martinsw1 12-Aug-19 09:06
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 532 Edmond 12-Aug-19 10:13
Re: Your scorpion or your Scorpius is back to front 461 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:30
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 491 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:21
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Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 474 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:44
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 471 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:46
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 450 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:40
Re: Constellation, or death-cult? 459 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:11
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Re: Lost or last civilisation? 440 greengirl5 15-Aug-19 00:06
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 461 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 23:01
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Re: Planet destruction 447 Corpuscles 13-Aug-19 01:50
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 484 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:49
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 482 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 11:02
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 485 Rebecca Bradley 14-Aug-19 06:56
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Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 532 Martinsw1 14-Aug-19 08:44
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 451 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:09
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 474 Rebecca Bradley 15-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 467 Corpuscles 15-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 484 cloister 15-Aug-19 07:50
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 480 Martinsw1 16-Aug-19 08:25
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 484 PB Bytes 16-Aug-19 16:35
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 478 Rebecca Bradley 17-Aug-19 06:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 470 Martinsw1 17-Aug-19 07:59
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 475 Susan Doris 17-Aug-19 10:21
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 471 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 493 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 496 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 09:08
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 474 Corpuscles 18-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 492 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:24
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 440 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 12:54
coming from a casual reader 449 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 14:20
Re: coming from a casual reader 440 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 15:57
Re: coming from a casual reader 425 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:41
Re: coming from a casual reader 440 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:18
280 million years 451 greengirl5 20-Aug-19 21:56
Re: 280 million years 432 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:23
Re: 280 million years 429 greengirl5 21-Aug-19 06:41
Support for Mrs. O'Leary's "milk factory" (in song) 405 drrayeye 21-Aug-19 00:55
Re: coming from a casual gambler 400 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 21:36
Re: coming from a casual gambler 433 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 21:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 412 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 00:03
Re: coming from a casual reader 412 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 01:21
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Re: coming from a casual reader 418 Eddie Larry 21-Aug-19 02:23
Re: coming from a casual reader 424 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 16:32
Re: coming from a casual reader 397 drrayeye 20-Aug-19 17:46
Re: coming from a casual reader 415 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 18:06
Re: coming from a casual reader 435 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 20:33
Re: coming from a casual reader 412 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 22:29
Re: coming from a casual reader 420 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 22:52
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Re: Zodiacal Art & Precession 410 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 04:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 444 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 453 Rebecca Bradley 18-Aug-19 08:48
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 424 PB Bytes 18-Aug-19 16:38
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 415 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 07:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 419 Susan Doris 20-Aug-19 10:23
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 411 PB Bytes 20-Aug-19 19:36
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 427 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 458 Rebecca Bradley 20-Aug-19 22:55
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 468 Corpuscles 20-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 470 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 06:48
The Test? 444 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 15:59
Re: The Test? 425 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 21:25
Re: The Test? 411 PB Bytes 21-Aug-19 21:58
Re: The Test? 436 Barbelo 21-Aug-19 22:05
Re: The Test? 426 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 22:52
Re: The Test? 435 Rebecca Bradley 22-Aug-19 05:31
Re: The Test? 426 Barbelo 22-Aug-19 05:48
Re: The Test? 442 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 14:21
Revising... The Test? 444 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 16:48
animal anatomy lesson #1 453 hendrik dirker 22-Aug-19 19:02
Re: animal anatomy lesson #1 466 PB Bytes 22-Aug-19 19:06
Re: animal anatomy 440 hendrik dirker 24-Aug-19 06:09
Re: animal anatomy 477 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 16:25
Re: Revising... The Test? 430 Rebecca Bradley 24-Aug-19 07:22
Re: Revising... The Test? 419 PB Bytes 24-Aug-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 417 Rebecca Bradley 31-Aug-19 06:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 410 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 17:08
Re: Revising... The Test? 405 Eddie Larry 31-Aug-19 17:32
Re: Revising... The Test? 406 PB Bytes 31-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Revising... The Test? 408 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:03
Re: Revising... The Test? 388 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 15:30
Re: Revising... The Test? 405 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Revising... The Test? 412 Rebecca Bradley 01-Sep-19 04:15
Research design perspective 439 drrayeye 14-Aug-19 22:21
Re: Research design perspective 406 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Research design perspective 427 Susan Doris 15-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Research design perspective 446 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:08
Re: Research design perspective 424 PB Bytes 17-Aug-19 15:43
Re: Research design perspective 431 drrayeye 17-Aug-19 17:25
Re: Research design perspective 426 Martinsw1 18-Aug-19 08:00
Re: Research design perspective 411 drrayeye 18-Aug-19 21:42
Re: Research design perspective 435 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:32
Re: Research design perspective 428 Corpuscles 19-Aug-19 22:32
Not Science, No Proof 459 Barbelo 18-Aug-19 22:44
Re: Not Science, No Proof 471 Martinsw1 19-Aug-19 08:35
Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 433 Barbelo 19-Aug-19 11:03
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 465 Martinsw1 20-Aug-19 08:58
Re: Pomposity Levels Not Exceeded On This Board 440 Barbelo 20-Aug-19 12:00
Earth orbital antics 470 hendrik dirker 20-Aug-19 18:39
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 503 Martinsw1 11-Aug-19 19:56
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 469 Corpuscles 12-Aug-19 06:12
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 490 Rebecca Bradley 12-Aug-19 06:42
individual subjectivity and objective consensus 490 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 16:59
Re: individual subjectivity and objective consensus 465 Martinsw1 13-Aug-19 10:40
Other thoughts. 456 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 16:32
Re: Other thoughts. 436 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Other thoughts. 454 PB Bytes 13-Aug-19 18:42
Re: Other thoughts. 448 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 19:06
Reading the book 445 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Reading the book 456 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:11
Re: Other thoughts. 453 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 01:20
Re: Other thoughts. 447 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 02:51
Re: Other thoughts. 442 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Other thoughts. 422 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Other thoughts. 438 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 17:54
Re: Other thoughts. 434 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 19:02
Re: Other thoughts. 438 Eddie Larry 14-Aug-19 19:32
Re: Other thoughts. 428 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 20:24
Re: Other thoughts. 445 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 04:49
Re: Other thoughts. 446 Corpuscles 14-Aug-19 05:13
Re: Other thoughts. 441 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 14:35
Dr. Sweatman, in case you didn't know... 516 PB Bytes 09-Aug-19 15:56
The Zodiac 456 hendrik dirker 10-Aug-19 12:00
Re: The Zodiac 477 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 14:58
Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 441 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 427 PB Bytes 10-Aug-19 23:52
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 442 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:07
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 436 PB Bytes 11-Aug-19 00:20
Re: Scorpius, Orions belt, pareidolia 443 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:26
Just been outside to see Scorpius 448 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 11:40
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 434 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:51
Re: Just been outside to see Scorpius 462 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:53
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 470 PB Bytes 12-Aug-19 14:18
Regarding the wider picture down the line 454 PB Bytes 14-Aug-19 16:47
Re: Regarding the wider picture down the line 506 Martinsw1 15-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Welcoming Dr Martin Sweatman our featured author for August 2019 491 Corpuscles 21-Aug-19 23:13
A new question 432 PB Bytes 01-Sep-19 17:25
Re: A new question 952 Rebecca Bradley 02-Sep-19 04:20


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