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If ten monkeys had eternity to do it in, surely they would mine the metal, invent machines to make it into thin wires and other machines to cut and bend them into paper clips.
Just my variation of the monkeys writing Shakespeare plays.

GG.


Robert Jameson Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Eddie,
>
> You quoted me:
> <<< The problem arises when you want to
> describe how anything came into existence
.
> >>>
>
> I wrote the above when explaining the difficulty
> with the word ‘creation’. For example.
>
> Robert Jameson wrote:
> <<< I guess there is some difficulty with the
> word ‘creation’. The word will forever be
> associated with the biblical Creationist Myths and
> the associated supernatural claims that a human
> like God figure did it all.
>
> The problem arises when you want to describe how
> anything came into existence. A paper clip is a
> piece of wire bent into a specific shape. It did
> not come about as the result of a number of random
> events – it is the result of a number of
> non-random events – it is a creation.
>>>
>
> Eddie wrote
> <<< Hi Robert, we can’t describe how anything
> came into existence because we don’t really
> experience anything coming into existence. We
> observe things and the changes that happen to
> them.
>>>
>
> I can see where you are coming from with this –
> but again there seems to be a problem we
> terminology. So referring again to the paper clip
> analogy – probably ‘come into existence’ was
> not the best choice of words. Let’s say the
> paper clip was ‘manufactured’ – and yes we
> ‘observed’ the process and the ‘changes that
> happened’. This is precisely the point I was
> making – the only difference is I was talking
> about a non-random process and used the word
> ‘creation’ rather than ‘manufacture’.
>
> I will however take issue with your following
> statement.
>
> Eddie wrote:
> <<< Asking what happened or existed prior to
> the start of the Universe is a process of our
> imaginations, making stuff up. If we can’t
> observe something, then we cannot describe it.

> >>>
>
> Actually, I do not recall ever observing a paper
> clip being manufactured (created). I just assume,
> correctly I believe, that it happened as a result
> of a complex non-random process. Same with my
> motor car, laptop, mobile phone and millions of
> other things we encounter on a daily basis that
> somebody, or something, created. Such that if
> anyone tells me the paper clip on my desk is not
> the product of a non-random process; I would not
> believe them.
>
> The point being – I do not have to observe the
> manufacture of something to know it came about as
> a result of a complex non-random process.
>
> Eddie wrote:
> <<< Asking whether the beginning of the
> Universe was random or not, or determined or not
> is simply making logical sounding statements about
> something we do not or did not experience, I.e.,
> more making stuff up. IMO, of course
. >>>
>
> Given the complexity of the universe, with its
> life and human consciousness, is far greater than
> the paper clip on my desk, I likewise assume it is
> the product of a non-random process.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 47235 Graham Hancock 04-Jun-19 15:43
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 519 Darryl Sloan 04-Jun-19 19:05
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 451 Susan Doris 07-Jun-19 07:13
Definitely not an atheist 621 Robert Jameson 15-Jun-19 07:52
Re: Definitely not an atheist 426 Darryl Sloan 17-Jun-19 10:55
The goldfish analogy 394 Robert Jameson 22-Jun-19 07:23
Re: The goldfish analogy 381 Susan Doris 22-Jun-19 10:53
Re: The goldfish analogy 375 Robert Jameson 22-Jun-19 12:27
Re: The goldfish analogy 388 Susan Doris 22-Jun-19 15:04
Re: The goldfish analogy 381 Eddie Larry 22-Jun-19 19:16
Making something up is terrific and necessary in Science IF 382 drrayeye 22-Jun-19 21:44
Everything is natural 375 greengirl5 23-Jun-19 00:12
Don't stop there 383 drrayeye 23-Jun-19 00:47
Re: Don't stop there 381 hendrik dirker 23-Jun-19 03:35
I met Thomas Kuhn once, Hendrik, 373 drrayeye 23-Jun-19 05:34
From my 'Out of left field' file 373 Robert Jameson 23-Jun-19 09:55
Re: From my 'Out of left field' file 391 Susan Doris 23-Jun-19 12:52
Re: From my 'Out of left field' file 398 Robert Jameson 24-Jun-19 00:52
The paper clip analogy 372 Robert Jameson 23-Jun-19 00:27
Re: The paper clip analogy and chance 384 greengirl5 23-Jun-19 05:07
Monkeys bashing typewriters does not stack up 378 Robert Jameson 23-Jun-19 10:09
I believe you! 364 greengirl5 23-Jun-19 12:23
science jargon 380 drrayeye 23-Jun-19 06:54
Re: The goldfish analogy 376 Darryl Sloan 24-Jun-19 17:56
big bang 373 drrayeye 24-Jun-19 23:45
Re: big bang 372 Robert Jameson 25-Jun-19 03:18
Re: big bang 358 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 05:16
Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 370 drrayeye 25-Jun-19 06:56
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 378 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 07:15
There is more to science 367 drrayeye 25-Jun-19 12:10
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 378 Eddie Larry 26-Jun-19 21:51
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 383 Susan Doris 27-Jun-19 07:28
Rant of the month 371 drrayeye 27-Jun-19 08:30
Re: Rant of the month 357 greengirl5 27-Jun-19 23:15
Teach your children 371 drrayeye 28-Jun-19 03:36
Re: Teach your children 378 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 05:11
Re: Teach your children 362 Darryl Sloan 28-Jun-19 08:17
Re: Teach your children 364 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 10:21
Re: Teach your children 365 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 13:06
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 359 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-19 19:02
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 373 Robert Jameson 28-Jun-19 07:36
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 362 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-19 14:25
Re: Science vs. philosophy vs. pop culture 358 Darryl Sloan 28-Jun-19 07:47
Evidence for a creator 374 Robert Jameson 28-Jun-19 09:45
Re: Evidence for a creator 383 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 10:39
Re: Evidence for a creator 377 Robert Jameson 29-Jun-19 07:52
Re: Evidence for a creator 362 Susan Doris 29-Jun-19 09:29
Re: Evidence for a creator 371 Nolondil 30-Jun-19 14:38
Re: Evidence for a creator 361 Susan Doris 30-Jun-19 15:28
Re: Evidence for a creator 362 Eddie Larry 30-Jun-19 18:12
Re: Evidence for a creator 372 Robert Jameson 01-Jul-19 01:49
Re: Evidence for a creator 395 Susan Doris 01-Jul-19 08:12
Re: Evidence for a creator 358 Robert Jameson 01-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Evidence for a creator 357 Susan Doris 02-Jul-19 05:10
Re: Evidence for a creator 394 Robert Jameson 02-Jul-19 06:06
Re: Evidence for a creator 806 PB Bytes 03-Jul-19 17:08
Re: Evidence for a creator 377 drrayeye 29-Jun-19 10:48
Re: Evidence for a creator 363 Robert Jameson 30-Jun-19 01:30
Re: Evidence for a creator 372 Susan Doris 30-Jun-19 04:52
Re: Evidence for a creator and great scientific minds 366 greengirl5 30-Jun-19 05:42
scientistic jargon misses nuances 359 drrayeye 30-Jun-19 12:33
Re: scientistic jargon misses nuances 360 Susan Doris 30-Jun-19 14:02
Re: big bang 367 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 19:26
Re: big bang 362 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 05:10
Re: The goldfish analogy 378 Eddie Larry 25-Jun-19 00:53
Re: The goldfish analogy 364 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 19:36
Re: The goldfish analogy 374 drrayeye 25-Jun-19 20:13
Re: The goldfish analogy 377 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 05:16
Re: The goldfish analogy 362 Darryl Sloan 24-Jun-19 17:48
Re: The goldfish analogy 379 Darryl Sloan 24-Jun-19 17:46
Re: The goldfish analogy 365 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 05:26
Re: The goldfish analogy 375 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 19:43
Re: The goldfish analogy 371 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 05:25
Re: The goldfish analogy 364 Eddie Larry 26-Jun-19 21:42
Re: The goldfish analogy 372 Darryl Sloan 24-Jun-19 17:30
"self" between the eyes 369 drrayeye 24-Jun-19 23:53
Re: "self" between the eyes 376 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 19:48
Re: "self" between the eyes 362 drrayeye 25-Jun-19 20:09
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 399 rulebook54 24-Jun-19 19:45
Mod Note > rulebook54 - Threaded vs. Flat View 377 Dr. Troglodyte 24-Jun-19 22:25
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 369 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 05:39
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 372 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 13:56
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 369 Eddie Larry 25-Jun-19 14:21
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 366 Susan Doris 25-Jun-19 15:12
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 370 Eddie Larry 25-Jun-19 16:21
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 379 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 20:18
the kingdom of God is within you 374 drrayeye 25-Jun-19 20:36
Re: the kingdom of God is within you 363 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 05:39
Re: the kingdom of God is within you 366 drrayeye 26-Jun-19 06:33
Re: the kingdom of God is within you 356 greengirl5 26-Jun-19 07:10
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 363 Eddie Larry 25-Jun-19 20:42
Me 370 greengirl5 26-Jun-19 03:08
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 370 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 05:31
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 368 Darryl Sloan 26-Jun-19 20:20
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 369 Darryl Sloan 25-Jun-19 20:04
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 374 Eddie Larry 25-Jun-19 20:37
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 367 Darryl Sloan 26-Jun-19 20:22
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 378 Eddie Larry 26-Jun-19 20:34
Cats and dogs 355 greengirl5 27-Jun-19 23:27
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 388 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 06:54
July coming up 362 greengirl5 26-Jun-19 07:41
Cosmic consciousness-theism! 375 greengirl5 26-Jun-19 07:50
Re: July coming up 365 Susan Doris 26-Jun-19 09:08
Re: July coming up 367 greengirl5 26-Jun-19 10:46
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 377 Darryl Sloan 26-Jun-19 20:31
love from above 389 drrayeye 26-Jun-19 23:51
Re: love from above 377 Susan Doris 27-Jun-19 07:36
Kohlberg 359 drrayeye 27-Jun-19 08:06
Re: Kohlberg 366 Susan Doris 27-Jun-19 11:04
Piaget 366 drrayeye 27-Jun-19 19:21
Re: Piaget 363 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-19 21:49
Re: Piaget 350 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 05:23
Re: love from above 353 Darryl Sloan 30-Jun-19 18:43
No time! ? ? 359 greengirl5 30-Jun-19 23:49
Re: Welcome to Darryl Sloan our author of the month for June 2019 402 Thanos5150 27-Jun-19 05:27
It's not in the text 384 drrayeye 26-Jun-19 21:25
Re: It's not in the text 390 Susan Doris 27-Jun-19 07:41
How Suart saves his family 376 drrayeye 27-Jun-19 08:17
Re: How Suart saves his family 381 Susan Doris 27-Jun-19 11:07
No 375 drrayeye 27-Jun-19 18:21
Am I the only one? 383 greengirl5 27-Jun-19 23:53
Re: Am I the only one? 364 Susan Doris 28-Jun-19 05:33
Re: Am I the only one? 359 greengirl5 28-Jun-19 08:00
Re: It's not in the text 379 Darryl Sloan 28-Jun-19 09:08
Let's try a different approach 366 drrayeye 28-Jun-19 15:42
Re: Let's try a different approach 365 Darryl Sloan 30-Jun-19 18:58
You are a good guy! 386 greengirl5 28-Jun-19 23:51
Farewell, everyone! 388 Darryl Sloan 30-Jun-19 20:22
Re: Farewell, everyone! 362 drrayeye 30-Jun-19 23:11
lets hear it for the universe 368 jazzmumbles 01-Jul-19 00:55
Re: Farewell, everyone! 368 Eddie Larry 01-Jul-19 02:47
Re: Farewell, everyone! 380 Robert Jameson 01-Jul-19 05:55
Re: Farewell, everyone! 376 Susan Doris 01-Jul-19 08:18


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