You quoted me:
<<< The problem arises when you want to describe how anything came into existence. >>>
I wrote the above when explaining the difficulty with the word ‘creation’. For example.
Robert Jameson wrote:
<<< I guess there is some difficulty with the word ‘creation’. The word will forever be associated with the biblical Creationist Myths and the associated supernatural claims that a human like God figure did it all.
The problem arises when you want to describe how anything came into existence. A paper clip is a piece of wire bent into a specific shape. It did not come about as the result of a number of random events – it is the result of a number of non-random events – it is a creation. >>>
<<< Hi Robert, we can’t describe how anything came into existence because we don’t really experience anything coming into existence. We observe things and the changes that happen to them. >>>
I can see where you are coming from with this – but again there seems to be a problem we terminology. So referring again to the paper clip analogy – probably ‘come into existence’ was not the best choice of words. Let’s say the paper clip was ‘manufactured’ – and yes we ‘observed’ the process and the ‘changes that happened’. This is precisely the point I was making – the only difference is I was talking about a non-random process and used the word ‘creation’ rather than ‘manufacture’.
I will however take issue with your following statement.
<<< Asking what happened or existed prior to the start of the Universe is a process of our imaginations, making stuff up. If we can’t observe something, then we cannot describe it. >>>
Actually, I do not recall ever observing a paper clip being manufactured (created). I just assume, correctly I believe, that it happened as a result of a complex non-random process. Same with my motor car, laptop, mobile phone and millions of other things we encounter on a daily basis that somebody, or something, created. Such that if anyone tells me the paper clip on my desk is not the product of a non-random process; I would not believe them.
The point being – I do not have to observe the manufacture of something to know it came about as a result of a complex non-random process.
<<< Asking whether the beginning of the Universe was random or not, or determined or not is simply making logical sounding statements about something we do not or did not experience, I.e., more making stuff up. IMO, of course. >>>
Given the complexity of the universe, with its life and human consciousness, is far greater than the paper clip on my desk, I likewise assume it is the product of a non-random process.