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After accusations were made that I am a religious zealot, and was hijacking the post, I decided to lay low for a while. I would however like to make a few comments before this AoM closes.

It was suggested by one of the posters to this thread that Bruce Fenton is an Australian. I do not know if this is true but his website says he was born in Cheltenham UK and graduated from Anglia Ruskin University UK in 2002. I therefore suggest he be very careful when claiming knowledge of Aboriginal people. I have great-great grandparents buried in this country (Australia) went to school with Aboriginal children, worked for many years with Aboriginal people, lived and worked on the Pitjantjatjara Aboriginal Homelands for 3 years – and can confidently state that I am a million miles away from ever understanding Aboriginal people or their culture.

Bruce is quite emphatic that there is archaeological evidence that links early Aboriginals to intercontinental migration. However, in his report on the Ecuador Llanganates Jungle Megaliths he does not appear to attribute the construction of these structures to the native Ecuadorian people. From; The Megalithic Constructions in the Ecuadorian Jungle are Not Natural Features

Quote

Bruce Fenton:
Some decades ago at least one or more persons stumbled upon a partly exposed megalithic structure deep in the Ecuadorian jungle known as the Llanganates. This is the most inhospitable jungle in Latin America and as far as I can discover it has no indigenous peoples or even any known history of human habitation before modern times.

There can be no doubt now that what we have here is the remnants of human habitation from a very ancient era. The building techniques and artefacts do not match any known Ecuadorian culture.

[earth4all.net]

If he applied the same standards to himself, as he applies to me, then he would surely be guilty of ‘gross Western arrogance’ for not attributing the original Ecuadorians with the ability to construct these monuments.

I must also say I am a little confused when reading his article; Did Consciousness Manifest the Physical Universe? Here he notes the impossible probability that the universe, and the elements necessary for life to exist, could have assembled by accident.

Quote

Bruce Fenton:
Are we willing to accept the materialist-reductionist view of cosmology in which minuscule particles all just happened to bump up against each other despite being in an infinitely large space? Can we really accept without question that random chemical process will inevitably spawn life from pools of damp mineral sludge? Surely there are better theories to these important areas of thought? …

It is my own opinion, shared by a growing number of highly credentialed scientists, that the current failure to find any explanation for the transition from inanimate matter to animate organisms, is due to dismissing the possibility that consciousness was already present in the universe before biological life arose. That perhaps consciousness directed the whole show.
If we take the highly logical leap that some form of consciousness was present within the singularity at the heart of the Big Bang, then passing into the early universe during the Big Bang, things start to make a lot more sense. Rather than biological life arising from inert matter via chance chemical interaction alone, we can instead hypothesise that biological life arose due to the interaction between primal consciousness, which existed beyond physical form, and physical matter. The fact that non-physical fields of consciousness can inhabit and animate physical matter should be self-evident to all of us!

The above is basically what I have claimed when proposing the God Gametes theory. But because I used the word ‘God’ Bruce has totally dismissed my claim and called me a religious zealot.

Quote

Bruce Fenton:
The nature of consciousness is such a vast, ongoing, discussion. We could easily spend a great deal of time examining the conversations between consciousness researchers. For now, let us just suffice with a very simple summary, that consciousness is as its most basic description an incredibly coherent, non-physical, field of energy, able to operate beyond the limits of the time-space continuum. Being non-physical, it is not bound to the laws governing physical matter, yet experiments have shown time after time that consciousness can interact with physical matter, normally by affecting the quantum components of matter. In brief, we can say that at the quantum level everything is fluidic, in waves of energy, until consciousness causes those waves to collapse and become fixed particles. Quantum wave-particle duality allows an ‘easy in road’ for consciousness to a physical realm.
Before we move onwards with the story of life let us just contrast for a moment the mainstream materialist consensus view with the alternative being offered here. Did particles of gas and dust, floating in a vast and ever expanding universe somehow, through pure chance, collide so often that billions of vast stars formed? Did a lucky bolt of lightning hit some minerals in a rock pool to bring us the first Frankenstein’s amoeba?
Or perhaps was consciousness always present, initially operating on the micro scale to affect the direction of those particles, then at just the right moment crossing through to inhabit the physical forms it had played a hand in forming?
Perhaps our human journey begins with a revised version of Genesis 1:1
“In the beginning, primal consciousness manifested the universe, and then the earth.” – Bruce Fenton

[brucefenton.info]

So it was not a ‘creator’ or a ‘God’ who twiddled the knobs – it was ‘primal consciousness’.

As I have stated earlier in this post, I do not believe it is possible to explain the origins of the universe or of life on earth. We lack an explanation for the existence of matter, energy and complex structures throughout the greater universe. And while we cannot explain the existence of ancient technology here on earth we need to acknowledge a disconnect with our ancient past.

My concern, and the reason for my writing again, is the difficulty I believe Bruce’s interpretation can cause. To explain let me point to two issues:

First, while the non-aboriginals who have made Australia their home have embraced Aboriginal people and their culture as part of their modern heritage, Aboriginal people do not appear to accept non-aboriginal occupation of the Australian continent. They will for example call our national day (Australia Day) ‘Invasion Day’ and claim we ‘stole their land’.

The second point is this. The Australian Aboriginal people, as with indigenous people from many other places around the world, have difficulty adjusting to a modern western way of living. There are countless resources I could point to here but the below Wikipedia article on Indigenous Australians mentions some of the issues – (see bottom of article for Aboriginal issues relating to life expectancy, education, employment, health, crime and imprisonment and substance abuse.)

[en.wikipedia.org]

Thus; I do not think Bruce Fenton's thesis, or the below claim by Steven and Evan Strong, helps:

Quote

Steven and Evan Strong:
Australian Original people set sail from Australia, not to, 50,000 years ago. We claim that Australian Original people sailed to and settled in America over 40,000 years ago, and visited many other places including Egypt, Japan, Africa, India etc. They were the first Homo sapiens who evolved before the Sapiens of Africa, and who gave the world art, axes, religion, marine technology, culture, co-operative living, language and surgery. refer: Forgotten Origin – Our Theory

I do not discount the remarkable ingenuity of the Aboriginal people. Their survival on the harsh Australian continent was remarkable – but any rational interpretation of our current situation would suggest that they should attempt to adjust to a modern 21st century life style – not the other way around.

Cathy Freeman carrying both the Australian and Aboriginal flags at her 400-metre win at Sydney 2000 Olympics



ABC footage and interviews of Australians celebrating Freeman’s Olympics win

click link in Wikipedia article - as seen bottom right of below screen shot

Please check the above Wikipedia article and watch the ABC footage taken of the crowd during, and after, Cathy’s win. Then tell me Aussies do not have affection or care for our indigenous people.



Living together with Aboriginal people accepting us – and we accepting them – is the only way forward.

Responding to my posts Bruce Fenton wrote:

Quote

Bruce Fenton:
Thank you for your response, I must admit to being disappointed to see that you have largely evaded my responses to your initial post and moved away into what seems to be personal religious convictions - divorced from any reasonable science based debate. …

Rather than provide any evidence to counter my points, you instead state that "the God Gametes theory contends...", well, so what if it does? That is just a stream of thought from inside your head, that is not verifiable evidence of anything at all. …

Your argument sounds to me like a religious one, in which case I am trying to have a reasonable scientific conversation with a religious zealot, which is absolute futile because religious thinking never requires a scientific basis and manipulates data as it suits. I think I am now understanding that you are promoting not so much a 'God Gametes Theory' as a 'God Gametes Religion' - I suppose I should have known the moment 'God' was brought into this conversation, it would likely not end well. …

I see now that we are talking to each-other from two separate realities with separate standards for scientific evidence and a reasonable debate.

Wrong



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 26-Jun-17 11:29 by Robert Jameson.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4598 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 1125 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 824 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 894 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 728 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 766 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 759 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 757 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 642 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 968 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 769 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 723 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 754 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 665 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 763 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 649 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 780 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 746 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 631 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 964 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 689 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 764 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 730 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 690 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 849 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 632 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 657 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 740 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 784 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 687 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 689 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 670 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 676 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 822 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 679 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 745 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 756 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 647 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 715 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 720 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 743 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 751 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 648 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 630 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 822 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 611 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 681 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 732 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 806 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 631 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 651 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 721 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 720 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 688 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 642 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 709 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 699 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 610 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 540 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 807 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 740 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 630 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 689 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 742 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 623 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 616 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 625 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 644 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 598 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 639 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 644 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 707 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 625 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 736 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 633 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 698 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 643 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 553 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 635 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 639 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 572 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 553 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 623 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 510 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 511 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 859 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 586 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 560 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 538 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 636 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 712 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 605 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 514 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 711 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 641 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 626 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 765 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 454 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 435 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 457 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 431 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 474 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 605 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 465 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 447 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 441 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 850 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 464 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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