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Hi Lee,

Thank you very much for your comment, it is good to get the discussion rolling along. It might have been easier to split your post into parts, but I will try to address it as is.

First off let me say I do not see the contradiction between these two statements:

"Examination of the recent conclusions associated with the analysis of Homo erectus skulls in the Georgian Republic confirms that several species of hominins in Africa are in fact nothing more than expected variance within the greater H. erectus population."

"These matters are more complicated than first glance. The findings of the Dmanisi site actually included the strong suggestion that Homo habilis (and similair hominins in Africa) represent early H. erectus forms."

These seem to me just two ways of saying the same thing, as best as I can see. My point being that most African hominin fossils we know of are, in fact, representative of Homo erectus. I should have added that the this is for fossils dating between 2.5 million years ago to around 1 million years ago, including European and Asian fossils. This provides a new view of our family tree.

In response to your comment:

"Well, it is by no means a “fact” but rather opinion to explain [away] the implications of having multiple species outside of Africa at such an early date."

It may not be a rock solid undeniable fact (such are hard to come by) but I don't agree that this latest finding is just given to explain away any implications of having multiple species outside of Africa early on, even having the same species outside Africa at such times is problematic for the mainstream. The multiple species model is the dominant perspective so few scientists are very interested in explaining it away (other than perhaps a handful of radicals). The Dmanisi team simply recognised that the morphological diversity observed among the five skulls (which are universally accepted as being from H. erectus) was so incredibly high that there was no longer any solid basis upon which to place the multiple species model - which is currently based on the same level of morphological diversity across geographic regions. Morphological diversity alone is no longer a sufficient reason to claim multiple species if we have real world data telling us that Homo erectus were immensely diverse in their anatomy and skull morphology. What other evidence do we have to argue multiple species across regions between 2.5 - 1 million years ago?

As for the discussion about Early Modern Humans vs Fully Modern Humans, this is a slippery area. What really makes us fully modern humans? Is it simply having hugely reduced brow ridges and a more gracile form, or is it all the behavioural traits? What exactly is the criteria?

We now know that the first Homo sapiens, our ancestors that diverged away from Neanderthals, Denisovans and the shared ancestor, were on that lonesome path by around 700,000 years ago. In the most literal sense then, Homo sapiens have been around from perhaps 700,000 years ago, these would be the true early humans. When did they become early modern humans and when did they become modern humans? What is the criteria for these stages and are there really such clearly defined stages at all?

This all needs rethinking, now that we know our line is MUCH older than previously understood (as explained in my opening article). We also see modern behaviour much earlier than believed, including use of watercraft and production of abstract art. Conversely we see archaic traits surviving much later than previously understood, just look at the fossils of WLH50.

Your intuition on possible problems with some aspects of archaeogentics, like dating mutations, especially when divorced from physical fossil evidence, is very astute. You might find these papers of some interest, here, here and here.

Thank you for your points and I do hope you will continue to question my claims!

Best regards

Bruce



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Jun-17 05:34 by Bruce R. Fenton.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 4598 Bruce R. Fenton 01-Jun-17 11:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 1123 Susan Doris 02-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 822 Bruce R. Fenton 02-Jun-17 06:56
Related threads on GHMB 893 drrayeye 02-Jun-17 17:06
Re: Related threads on GHMB 727 Bruce R. Fenton 03-Jun-17 10:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 766 laughin 05-Jun-17 21:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 758 Bruce R. Fenton 06-Jun-17 04:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 757 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:28
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 641 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 04:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 968 Thanos5150 06-Jun-17 14:29
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 769 SallyA 07-Jun-17 02:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 722 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:47
... 754 SallyA 08-Jun-17 04:00
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution ..-_-.. question one 665 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 04:37
... 762 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 649 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:15
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 779 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 19:38
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 746 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 03:20
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 630 Bruce R. Fenton 07-Jun-17 05:33
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 963 Thanos5150 07-Jun-17 16:08
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 688 SallyA 08-Jun-17 05:17
... 764 SallyA 08-Jun-17 06:06
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 729 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution -- thank you 689 SallyA 09-Jun-17 03:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 849 Thanos5150 11-Jun-17 16:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 631 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:26
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 657 Bruce R. Fenton 09-Jun-17 02:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 738 Thanos5150 09-Jun-17 23:54
OOA strikes back - the sequel 784 laughin 08-Jun-17 13:09
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 686 Bruce R. Fenton 08-Jun-17 15:37
Re: OOA strikes back - the sequel 689 Thanos5150 08-Jun-17 17:23
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 670 Robert Jameson 11-Jun-17 06:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 676 Bruce R. Fenton 11-Jun-17 11:46
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 821 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 05:34
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 679 dong 12-Jun-17 06:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 744 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 13:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 755 Bruce R. Fenton 12-Jun-17 09:19
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 645 Robert Jameson 12-Jun-17 12:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 714 Susan Doris 14-Jun-17 05:02
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 718 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 05:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 743 michael seabrook 13-Jun-17 22:09
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 750 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 00:51
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 647 SallyA 13-Jun-17 01:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 629 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 02:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb. .. Giza hosts an inland sea 821 SallyA 13-Jun-17 02:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 608 Robert Jameson 13-Jun-17 03:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution. -- off topic .. senmutt tomb 680 SallyA 13-Jun-17 04:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 732 Thanos5150 14-Jun-17 15:55
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 805 Robert Jameson 14-Jun-17 17:54
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 631 michael seabrook 16-Jun-17 21:03
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 650 Robert Jameson 16-Jun-17 22:47
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 721 SallyA 16-Jun-17 23:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution Excellent and ... 719 Robert Jameson 17-Jun-17 09:44
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 625 Susan Doris 17-Jun-17 14:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 688 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 02:43
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 641 Susan Doris 18-Jun-17 09:24
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 709 Bruce R. Fenton 18-Jun-17 11:04
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 699 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:14
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 609 Robert Jameson 18-Jun-17 11:04
Unfair diversion 540 drrayeye 18-Jun-17 21:35
Re: Proto-sumerian ... Ukraine ... a bit late for into Africa I fear, probably mis-posted 807 SallyA 19-Jun-17 03:00
Re: Unfair diversion 739 Susan Doris 19-Jun-17 05:20
Unfair diversion for sure 629 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 05:47
Re: Unfair diversion for sure 689 Susan Doris 20-Jun-17 04:56
Robert's challenge 741 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 07:24
Re: Robert's challenge 623 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 11:17
Tangential 616 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 05:03
Re: Tangential 624 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 06:12
Wrong board 643 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:38
Re: Wrong board 598 Robert Jameson 27-Jun-17 08:03
Re: Tangential 639 Eddie Larry 27-Jun-17 15:59
Re:Susan, do you know of a time line? 644 SallyA 19-Jun-17 17:48
Re: Unfair diversion 707 Thanos5150 19-Jun-17 13:44
Re: Unfair diversion 624 drrayeye 19-Jun-17 15:40
Re: Unfair diversion 736 Robert Jameson 19-Jun-17 23:14
Re: Unfair diversion 632 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 00:31
Re: Unfair diversion 697 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 10:19
kicking a dead horse 642 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 14:36
Re: kicking a dead horse 552 Robert Jameson 20-Jun-17 23:49
Staying on topic 634 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 01:15
Re: Unfair diversion 639 Thanos5150 20-Jun-17 15:24
Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 572 SallyA 20-Jun-17 15:59
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 553 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:21
Interesting 622 drrayeye 27-Jun-17 06:50
Re: Interesting 510 Bruce R. Fenton 27-Jun-17 22:32
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 511 Eddie Larry 28-Jun-17 04:37
Re: Hominids vs Homo. most obvious difference -- thumbs on feet 858 Bruce R. Fenton 28-Jun-17 04:41
Re: Unfair diversion 585 drrayeye 20-Jun-17 15:59
Off Topic: re: factors which alter .. Earth's shields don't block cygnets ... nor neutrinos, ... 560 SallyA 20-Jun-17 21:13
Re: Unfair diversion 538 SallyA 21-Jun-17 01:37
Focus 636 drrayeye 21-Jun-17 07:30
Re: Focus 712 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 10:26
Re: Focus 605 Susan Doris 26-Jun-17 16:51
Re: Focus... ah, my bad ... 513 SallyA 11-Feb-18 19:40
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 711 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Jun-17 12:12
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 641 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 06:32
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 626 Bruce R. Fenton 26-Jun-17 11:57
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 764 Robert Jameson 26-Jun-17 13:59
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 454 lalbee 16-Feb-18 13:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 435 lalbee 17-Feb-18 02:25
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 457 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 04:13
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 431 lalbee 17-Feb-18 05:56
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 473 Bruce R. Fenton 17-Feb-18 06:27
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 604 lalbee 18-Feb-18 15:17
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 465 drrayeye 21-Feb-18 13:48
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 445 lalbee 22-Feb-18 16:45
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 440 Robert Jameson 22-Feb-18 19:39
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 849 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:07
Re: The Into Africa Theory of Human Evolution 464 Bruce R. Fenton 22-Feb-18 23:00


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