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ananda wrote:

> I have always considered very plausible the idea that
> Christian deities have been shaped over the years as
> amalgamations and offshoots of former gods and figures as
> they happen to have been assimilated from other cultures and
> regions.
>
> In Christ, I could see something of Horus and Mithra, for
> example (Zoroaster as well?)... in Mary, Isis (Astarte,
> Ishtar?).
>
> Is this valid thinking?
>
> I think some people are saying that the Christ/Mithra
> connection has been debunked... god, how I hate that word.
> However, I would like to know how that happened?

I don't think it is valid thinking. There are many essays debunking the Jesus story as being original but there are also scholarly rebuttals of such claims. Sorry to bring up J/ P. Holding, again but I'll give one glaring problem with one of the more common misconceptions that Jesus = Mithras , the idea that both were born on the 25th of December. J. P. Holding:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

---

J. P. Holding laboriously goes through every facet of the claims that Jesus = Mithras and replies to them all in this essay: Mighty Mithraic Madness - Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

---

> Also, I read somewhere that the origin of haloes came from AE
> depictions of Isis and Horus. Interesting. Remember we were
> wondering why some Renaissance painters used haloes and
> others didn't, and why Michelangelo and da Vinci didn't...
> though da Vinci was coerced into supplying them in his remake
> "Madonna of the Rocks." The Russians even went so far as to
> institutionalize haloes in all of their beautifully stylized
> icons and symbolic religious paintings. By the Middle Ages,
> belief was absolute and enforced with an iron hand,
> alternately a fist for coercion and a palm for accepting
> gifts, alms, tithes, and payment for indulgences.

Don't fall off your chair Ananda but I believe it is probably true that the origin of haloes came from AE depictions of Horus or Osiris. However, these depictions are only creations of the artists concerned. There is not a single description in the Bible of Jesus with a halo. The word "halo" is not found in the Bible.



Is Bush a Horus figure? Probably!

> Well, anyhow, I find it hard to believe that the Christ and
> Mary that fleshed out over the years just materialized out of
> the thin rarefied ether of heaven and fell on earth full
> blown with no other vertical or horizontal influences or
> histories to help us create them.

Erm, I don't think that's how it happened... Jesus was born, he didn't just appear fully blown but I've probably misuderstood what you were driving at here! The whole of the OT builds up to the arrival of Jesus also, so his arrival wasn't unexpected...

> Or were they indeed
> products of the spontaneous combustion of divine inspiration
> and miraculous events such as no one could invent or even
> come together to help create?

I believe Christ's birth was a natural happening, except that instead of a normal human baby spirit coming into the womb, some weeks or months after the original act of sex, a Divine being in the form of Jesus enetered her womb. Apparently, a foetus doesn't come to life until some time after the actual sex act. I forget when this is exactly supposed to be now...

Mary was probably a virgin in the sense that her union with Joseph was pure. This is a big sunfect in and of itself. I could expand if you request...

Rob

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 976 ananda 23-Feb-04 02:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 348 Milo 23-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 311 ananda 23-Feb-04 04:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 279 Milo 23-Feb-04 05:12
Mod Comment to you two 280 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 14:42
Re: Mod Comment to you two 285 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:00
Fallen Angels & Co. 299 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:09
Re: Fallen Angels & Co. 300 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:18
Yes .. ups.. sorry..n/t 294 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:27
it's me - lol 333 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:19
Re: it's me - lol 329 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:21
No probs n/t 322 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:30
Re: Divine Beings 317 Nebankh 23-Feb-04 16:47
Re: Divine Beings 316 Milo 23-Feb-04 17:17
Divine Agreement to Differ 322 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Divine Agreement to Differ 334 Milo 23-Feb-04 18:22
Believers and Researchers 348 Nejc 23-Feb-04 18:48
I am not a blind believer but a researcher 333 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:01
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 328 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:15
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 317 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:19
Oh. Thanks for this one :) n/t 320 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:22
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 281 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:21
On the other hand... 342 Nejc 23-Feb-04 20:21
Re: On the other hand... 316 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:39
Re: Divine Beings 348 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:00
Re: Divine Beings 289 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:09
Re: Divine Beings 341 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:24
Re: Divine Beings 301 David L 23-Feb-04 22:42
Is there another site for serious discussion? 328 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 23:09
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 323 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 18:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 307 Milo 24-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 290 David L 25-Feb-04 01:48
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 284 Milo 25-Feb-04 02:14
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 301 David L 25-Feb-04 03:03
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 288 Milo 25-Feb-04 06:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 296 David L 25-Feb-04 16:30
No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 291 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:18
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 296 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:47
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 304 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:54
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 295 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Cana 302 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:30
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 299 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:32
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 302 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:05
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 271 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:57
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 317 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:36
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 339 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 10:19
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 294 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:01
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 318 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:14
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 327 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:23
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 335 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:27
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 316 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 280 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:01
Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 305 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:30
Re: Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 308 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:43
In Addition.... 282 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:50
Point was missed 273 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 295 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 18:45
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 270 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 18:53
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 298 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 19:02
I misread the quoted passage... 281 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:28
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 334 David L 25-Feb-04 23:20
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 284 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:31
One more thing... 313 David L 25-Feb-04 23:25
Re: One more thing... 309 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:32
Also... 305 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:41
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 306 David L 25-Feb-04 23:08
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 300 Thirdwave 25-Feb-04 23:33
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 318 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 298 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:01
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 297 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 323 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 295 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 315 sunbeam 23-Feb-04 15:50
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 319 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:15
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 325 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 331 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:25
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 319 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 331 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 326 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:49
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 302 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 272 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:26
Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 326 Jaimi 23-Feb-04 21:04
Re: Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 341 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 326 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 323 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:32
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 330 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 324 Milo 24-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 317 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 289 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:35
And by the way... 323 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: And by the way... 332 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: And by the way... 284 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:14
Re: And by the way... 290 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:28
Re: And by the way... 305 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 16:48
Sources? 306 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:24
Re: Sources? 285 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:29
Re: And by the way... 406 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 17:00
Re: And by the way... 303 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 17:45
Re: And by the way... 408 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 18:20
Re: And by the way... 291 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:49
Re: And by the way... 387 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 19:15
Re: And by the way... 277 ananda 26-Feb-04 21:11
Re: And by the way... 381 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 23:30
Re: And by the way... 375 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 00:14
Re: And by the way... 297 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 13:35
Re: And by the way... 361 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 16:44
Re: And by the way... 507 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 16:46
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 309 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:40
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 304 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 347 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:57
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 343 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 376 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 335 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 329 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:34
Challenge to Milo 327 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:21
Re: Challenge to Milo 348 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:38
Re: Challenge to Milo 382 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:43
Re: Challenge to Milo 319 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:31
Yes you are n/t 325 Nejc 23-Feb-04 21:56
Re: Yes you are n/t 298 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:25
Then again... 299 Nejc 24-Feb-04 08:31
Big Blue :) 317 Thirdwave 24-Feb-04 10:54
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 298 debraregypt 23-Feb-04 15:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 312 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:16
Archetypes of the collective unconscious 347 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:55
Re: Archetypes of the collective unconscious 338 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:04
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 332 David L 23-Feb-04 22:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 315 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 321 David L 24-Feb-04 01:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 316 Milo 24-Feb-04 01:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 290 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 279 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 344 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 322 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:55
Lee... What about Moses? 318 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:12
Evidence that Jesus Existed 285 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:16
Re: Lee... What about Moses? 299 David L 26-Feb-04 20:37
Deblinkering debunkers... 294 Morph 24-Feb-04 15:26
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 305 Zosimos 24-Feb-04 18:50
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 258 Morph 25-Feb-04 15:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 310 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 297 ananda 25-Feb-04 13:10
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 291 Milo 25-Feb-04 16:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 285 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 266 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 21:16
Re: Christ and Dionysis - good article 298 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:58
6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 293 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:05
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 285 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:14
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 288 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:34
Hmmm... 328 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:16
Re: Hmmm... 306 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:20
Re: Hmmm... 295 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:44
Au Contraire... 292 Morph 27-Feb-04 14:36


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