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ananda wrote:

> I have always considered very plausible the idea that
> Christian deities have been shaped over the years as
> amalgamations and offshoots of former gods and figures as
> they happen to have been assimilated from other cultures and
> regions.
>
> In Christ, I could see something of Horus and Mithra, for
> example (Zoroaster as well?)... in Mary, Isis (Astarte,
> Ishtar?).
>
> Is this valid thinking?
>
> I think some people are saying that the Christ/Mithra
> connection has been debunked... god, how I hate that word.
> However, I would like to know how that happened?

I don't think it is valid thinking. There are many essays debunking the Jesus story as being original but there are also scholarly rebuttals of such claims. Sorry to bring up J/ P. Holding, again but I'll give one glaring problem with one of the more common misconceptions that Jesus = Mithras , the idea that both were born on the 25th of December. J. P. Holding:

Mithra was born of a virgin on December 25th in a cave, and his birth was attended by shepherds.

This claim, which I have seen repeated in part by the Secular Web's James Still, is a mix of truth and obfuscations. Let's begin with the December 25th part by noting Glenn Miller's reply, which is more than sufficient: "...the Dec 25 issue is of no relevance to us--nowhere does the NT associate this date with Jesus' birth at all." This is something the later church did, wherever they got the idea from -- not the apostolic church, and if there was any borrowing at all, everyone did it, for Dec. 25th was "universally distinguished by sacred festivities" [Cum.MM, 196] being that it was (at the time) the winter solstice.

Next, the cave part. First of all, Mithra was not born of a virgin in a cave; he was born out of solid rock, which presumably left a cave behind -- and I suppose technically the rock he was born out of could have been classified as a virgin! Here is how one Mithraic scholar describes the scene on Mithraic depictions: Mithra "wearing his Phrygian cap, issues forth from the rocky mass. As yet only his bare torso is visible. In each hand he raises aloft a lighted torch and, as an unusual detail, red flames shoot out all around him from the petra genetrix." [MS.173] Mithra was born a grown-up, but you won't hear the copycatters mention this! (The rock-birth scene itself was a likely carryover from Perseus, who experienced a similar birth in an underground cavern; Ulan.OMM, 36.)

---

J. P. Holding laboriously goes through every facet of the claims that Jesus = Mithras and replies to them all in this essay: Mighty Mithraic Madness - Did The Mithraic Mysteries Influence Christianity?

---

> Also, I read somewhere that the origin of haloes came from AE
> depictions of Isis and Horus. Interesting. Remember we were
> wondering why some Renaissance painters used haloes and
> others didn't, and why Michelangelo and da Vinci didn't...
> though da Vinci was coerced into supplying them in his remake
> "Madonna of the Rocks." The Russians even went so far as to
> institutionalize haloes in all of their beautifully stylized
> icons and symbolic religious paintings. By the Middle Ages,
> belief was absolute and enforced with an iron hand,
> alternately a fist for coercion and a palm for accepting
> gifts, alms, tithes, and payment for indulgences.

Don't fall off your chair Ananda but I believe it is probably true that the origin of haloes came from AE depictions of Horus or Osiris. However, these depictions are only creations of the artists concerned. There is not a single description in the Bible of Jesus with a halo. The word "halo" is not found in the Bible.



Is Bush a Horus figure? Probably!

> Well, anyhow, I find it hard to believe that the Christ and
> Mary that fleshed out over the years just materialized out of
> the thin rarefied ether of heaven and fell on earth full
> blown with no other vertical or horizontal influences or
> histories to help us create them.

Erm, I don't think that's how it happened... Jesus was born, he didn't just appear fully blown but I've probably misuderstood what you were driving at here! The whole of the OT builds up to the arrival of Jesus also, so his arrival wasn't unexpected...

> Or were they indeed
> products of the spontaneous combustion of divine inspiration
> and miraculous events such as no one could invent or even
> come together to help create?

I believe Christ's birth was a natural happening, except that instead of a normal human baby spirit coming into the womb, some weeks or months after the original act of sex, a Divine being in the form of Jesus enetered her womb. Apparently, a foetus doesn't come to life until some time after the actual sex act. I forget when this is exactly supposed to be now...

Mary was probably a virgin in the sense that her union with Joseph was pure. This is a big sunfect in and of itself. I could expand if you request...

Rob

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 925 ananda 23-Feb-04 02:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 331 Milo 23-Feb-04 04:18
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 293 ananda 23-Feb-04 04:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 260 Milo 23-Feb-04 05:12
Mod Comment to you two 261 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 14:42
Re: Mod Comment to you two 267 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:00
Fallen Angels & Co. 281 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:09
Re: Fallen Angels & Co. 282 Milo 23-Feb-04 15:18
Yes .. ups.. sorry..n/t 275 Nejc 23-Feb-04 15:27
it's me - lol 314 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:19
Re: it's me - lol 309 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:21
No probs n/t 304 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 16:30
Re: Divine Beings 297 Nebankh 23-Feb-04 16:47
Re: Divine Beings 292 Milo 23-Feb-04 17:17
Divine Agreement to Differ 300 Thirdwave 23-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Divine Agreement to Differ 311 Milo 23-Feb-04 18:22
Believers and Researchers 330 Nejc 23-Feb-04 18:48
I am not a blind believer but a researcher 313 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:01
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 310 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:15
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 299 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:19
Oh. Thanks for this one :) n/t 302 Nejc 23-Feb-04 19:22
Re: I am not a blind believer but a researcher 256 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:21
On the other hand... 325 Nejc 23-Feb-04 20:21
Re: On the other hand... 298 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:39
Re: Divine Beings 334 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:00
Re: Divine Beings 272 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:09
Re: Divine Beings 325 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 19:24
Re: Divine Beings 282 David L 23-Feb-04 22:42
Is there another site for serious discussion? 314 drowningcreek 23-Feb-04 23:09
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 305 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 18:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 289 Milo 24-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 273 David L 25-Feb-04 01:48
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 267 Milo 25-Feb-04 02:14
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 284 David L 25-Feb-04 03:03
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 262 Milo 25-Feb-04 06:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 275 David L 25-Feb-04 16:30
No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 276 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:18
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 279 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:47
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 286 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:54
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 277 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:58
Re: Cana 284 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:30
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 274 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:32
Re: Cana - missed off a bit! 277 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:05
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 248 Milo 25-Feb-04 17:57
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 300 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:36
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 312 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 10:19
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 272 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:01
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 300 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:14
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 304 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:23
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 318 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:27
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 297 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 262 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:01
Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 287 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:30
Re: Augustinian vs. Gnostic (and even Pelagian) 288 Milo 26-Feb-04 17:43
In Addition.... 264 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:50
Point was missed 254 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:58
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 276 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 18:45
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 257 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 18:53
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 273 ArmchairObserver 25-Feb-04 19:02
I misread the quoted passage... 263 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:28
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 312 David L 25-Feb-04 23:20
Re: I misread the quoted passage... 265 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:31
One more thing... 294 David L 25-Feb-04 23:25
Re: One more thing... 291 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:32
Also... 287 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:41
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 288 David L 25-Feb-04 23:08
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 283 Thirdwave 25-Feb-04 23:33
Re: No Evidence for Jesus' Marriage 301 Milo 25-Feb-04 23:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 279 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:01
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 278 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:37
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 296 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 270 Milo 25-Feb-04 19:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 297 sunbeam 23-Feb-04 15:50
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 302 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:15
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 308 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 312 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:25
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 298 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 312 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 305 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:49
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 282 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 254 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:26
Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 307 Jaimi 23-Feb-04 21:04
Re: Osirus - Seprapis - Christianity 320 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 306 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 306 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:32
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 307 Paul Mallon 24-Feb-04 19:43
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 299 Milo 24-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 300 Milo 23-Feb-04 16:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 270 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:35
And by the way... 304 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:36
Re: And by the way... 315 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:42
Re: And by the way... 265 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:14
Re: And by the way... 272 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:28
Re: And by the way... 287 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 16:48
Sources? 288 ananda 26-Feb-04 17:24
Re: Sources? 269 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 18:29
Re: And by the way... 380 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 17:00
Re: And by the way... 284 Kboldt 26-Feb-04 17:45
Re: And by the way... 383 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 18:20
Re: And by the way... 270 ananda 26-Feb-04 18:49
Re: And by the way... 366 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 19:15
Re: And by the way... 259 ananda 26-Feb-04 21:11
Re: And by the way... 361 Zosimos 26-Feb-04 23:30
Re: And by the way... 355 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 00:14
Re: And by the way... 273 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 13:35
Re: And by the way... 337 Zosimos 27-Feb-04 16:44
Re: And by the way... 475 Kboldt 27-Feb-04 16:46
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 292 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:40
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 287 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 329 Milo 23-Feb-04 19:57
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 317 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:19
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 351 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:23
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 313 ananda 23-Feb-04 20:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 311 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:34
Challenge to Milo 308 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:21
Re: Challenge to Milo 327 Milo 23-Feb-04 21:38
Re: Challenge to Milo 363 ananda 23-Feb-04 21:43
Re: Challenge to Milo 300 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:31
Yes you are n/t 306 Nejc 23-Feb-04 21:56
Re: Yes you are n/t 281 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:25
Then again... 281 Nejc 24-Feb-04 08:31
Big Blue :) 298 Thirdwave 24-Feb-04 10:54
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 280 debraregypt 23-Feb-04 15:53
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 293 ananda 23-Feb-04 16:16
Archetypes of the collective unconscious 329 ananda 23-Feb-04 19:55
Re: Archetypes of the collective unconscious 316 Milo 23-Feb-04 20:04
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 314 David L 23-Feb-04 22:28
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 296 Milo 23-Feb-04 23:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 304 David L 24-Feb-04 01:35
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 297 Milo 24-Feb-04 01:47
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 272 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:51
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 260 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:22
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 325 Lee McGiffen 26-Feb-04 08:24
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 303 Milo 26-Feb-04 15:55
Lee... What about Moses? 293 ananda 26-Feb-04 16:12
Evidence that Jesus Existed 266 Milo 26-Feb-04 16:16
Re: Lee... What about Moses? 284 David L 26-Feb-04 20:37
Deblinkering debunkers... 281 Morph 24-Feb-04 15:26
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 287 Zosimos 24-Feb-04 18:50
Re: Deblinkering debunkers... 244 Morph 25-Feb-04 15:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 295 Lee McGiffen 25-Feb-04 09:58
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 282 ananda 25-Feb-04 13:10
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 277 Milo 25-Feb-04 16:33
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 271 Kboldt 25-Feb-04 19:27
Re: Christ:Mithra ... Mary:Isis ... 252 Zosimos 25-Feb-04 21:16
Re: Christ and Dionysis - good article 282 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 17:58
6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 271 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:05
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 269 Nebankh 25-Feb-04 18:14
Re: 6th of January not mentioned in the Bible 271 Milo 25-Feb-04 18:34
Hmmm... 310 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:16
Re: Hmmm... 294 Morph 26-Feb-04 15:20
Re: Hmmm... 279 Nebankh 26-Feb-04 16:44
Au Contraire... 278 Morph 27-Feb-04 14:36


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