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Hi Gene,

John 1:12 But as many as received him, to them he gave power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name: {power: or, the right, or, privilege}
13 Who were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
14 And the Word was made flesh, and dwelt among us, (and we beheld his glory, the glory as of the only begotten of the Father,) full of grace and truth.

I find it odd that you quote John who talks of belief in Jesus as the saviour of humankind, when in other posts you claim that belief (Maya) is the problem with man. The verse above clearly states that it is only the will of God that initiates this spiritual rebirth - reincarnation claims that we choose to come back to work out Karma - the two simply do not agree.

John is definately not referring to a fleshly rebirth, but to a spiritual rebirth as the above verse and the one following (in full context) will show:

John3:1 There was a man of the Pharisees, named Nicodemus, a ruler of the Jews:
2 The same came to Jesus by night, and said to him, Rabbi, we know that thou art a teacher come from God: for no man can do these miracles that thou doest, except God be with him.
3 Jesus answered and said to him, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. {again: or, from above}
4 Nicodemus saith to him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born?
5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say to thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.
7 Marvel not that I said to thee, Ye must be born again. {again: or, from above}
8 The wind bloweth where it will, and thou hearest the sound of it, but canst not tell where it cometh from, and where it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
9 Nicodemus answered and said to him, How can these things be?
10 Jesus answered and said to him, Art thou a teacher of Israel, and knowest not these things?
11 Verily, verily, I say to thee, We speak what we know, and testify what we have seen; and ye receive not our witness.
12 If I have told you earthly things, and ye believe not, how shall ye believe, if I tell you heavenly things?
13 And no man hath ascended to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man who is in heaven.
14 And as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up:
15 That whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him may be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.

In the following verse from John, we see Jesus deal with a Karmic theory :

John 9:1 And as Jesus passed by, he saw a man who was blind from his birth.
2 And his disciples asked him, saying, Master, who sinned, this man, or his parents, that he was born blind?
3 Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be revealed in him.
4 I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.
5 As long as I am in the world, I am the light of the world.



Jesus also tells the story of Lazarus. In it we clearly see that the dead prior to Jesus went to one of two places - Abraham's bosom(paradise) or Hades(hell):

Luke16:19 There was a certain rich man, who was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
20 And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, who was laid at his gate, full of sores,
21 And desiring to be fed with the crumbs which fell from the rich man’s table: moreover the dogs came and licked his sores.
22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham’s bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;
23 And in hell he lifted up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.
24 And he cried and said, Father Abraham, have mercy on me, and send Lazarus, that he may dip the tip of his finger in water, and cool my tongue; for I am tormented in this flame.
25 But Abraham said, Son, remember that thou in thy lifetime didst receive thy good things, and likewise Lazarus evil things: but now he is comforted, and thou art tormented.
26 And besides all this, between us and you there is a great gulf fixed: so that they who would pass from here to you cannot; neither can they pass to us, that would come from there.
27 Then he said, I pray thee therefore, father, that thou wouldest send him to my father’s house:
28 For I have five brethren; that he may testify to them, lest they also come into this place of torment.
29 Abraham saith to him, They have Moses and the prophets; let them hear them.
30 And he said, Nay, father Abraham: but if one went to them from the dead, they will repent.
31 And he said to him, If they hear not Moses and the prophets, neither will they be persuaded, though one rose from the dead.

Clearly the dead are not reincarnated ever according to this story told by Jesus. In fact we later discover exactly what paradise is when Jesus tells the thief on the cross that he will join Him in paradise that day. The thief and Jesus descended into paradise (paradise is not the same as heaven!!) and Jesus went and preached to the captives:

Ephesians 4:9 (Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?

19 By whom also he went and preached to the spirits in prison;

1 Peter 4:6 For for this cause was the gospel preached also to them that are dead, that they might be judged according to men in the flesh, but live according to God in the spirit.


In John we read that Jesus had not yet ascended even after He rose from the dead :

15 Jesus saith to her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith to him, Sir, if thou hast borne him away, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
16 Jesus saith to her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith to him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master.
17 Jesus saith to her, Touch me not; for I have not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say to them, I ascend to my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
18 Mary Magdalene came and told the disciples that she had seen the Lord, and that he had spoken these things to her.

Therefore, this paradise that the thief joined Him in on the day of His crucifixion was not heaven - He didn't ascend on that day, but descended.

Jesus made it clear what happens to spirits at death...... and it certainly isn't reincarnation!

>>Christ gives us numerous references to reincarnation in The Gospel of Thomas:

"where the beginning it, there the end will be...."

..."What you look forward to has already come, but you do not recognize it..."

"...the kingdom is spread out upon the earth, but men do not see it."

My favorite is, "The man old in days will not hesitate to ask a small child seven days old about the place of life, and he will live. For many of us who are first will become last, and they will become one and the same."
>>

Could you quote these in context? There is really nothing to go on here to show that He was teaching reincarnation.....

Blessings
Banah

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Subject Views Written By Posted
reincarnation 717 Melusine 19-Jan-04 20:55
Re: reincarnation 239 Zosimos 19-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 198 Melusine 19-Jan-04 21:59
Re: reincarnation 220 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:09
Re: reincarnation 211 Melusine 20-Jan-04 03:59
Re: reincarnation 198 David L 19-Jan-04 23:24
Re: reincarnation 229 Milo 19-Jan-04 23:38
Re: reincarnation 221 David L 20-Jan-04 15:08
Re: reincarnation 182 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:19
Re: reincarnation 217 David L 21-Jan-04 15:10
Re: reincarnation 211 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:23
Re: reincarnation 210 David L 20-Jan-04 15:03
Re: reincarnation 219 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 21:38
Re: reincarnation 174 David L 20-Jan-04 23:22
Re: reincarnation 220 Melusine 20-Jan-04 18:57
Re: reincarnation 210 Melusine 20-Jan-04 04:12
Re: reincarnation 188 David L 20-Jan-04 15:21
Re: reincarnation 198 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 17:13
Re: reincarnation 197 David L 20-Jan-04 18:54
Re: reincarnation 204 gene douglas 20-Jan-04 19:27
Re: reincarnation 225 David L 20-Jan-04 23:35
Re: reincarnation 245 banah 25-Jan-04 20:54
Re: reincarnation 218 David L 26-Jan-04 04:23
Re: reincarnation 211 banah 30-Jan-04 19:54
Water Symbolism 188 Cleopatra 11-Feb-04 13:59
Re: Water Symbolism 210 David L 11-Feb-04 17:32
Re: reincarnation 243 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 10:16
Re: reincarnation 247 gene douglas 21-Jan-04 13:26
Re: reincarnation 203 HarryWJYoung 22-Jan-04 00:21
Re: reincarnation 222 David L 21-Jan-04 15:26
Re: reincarnation 227 HarryWJYoung 21-Jan-04 16:02
Re: reincarnation 216 David L 21-Jan-04 22:13
Re: reincarnation 205 banah 25-Jan-04 19:41
Re: reincarnation 192 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:29
Re: reincarnation 207 fiascohoho 20-Jan-04 19:22
Re: reincarnation 215 David L 20-Jan-04 23:41
Re: reincarnation 217 Milo 21-Jan-04 00:39
Re: reincarnation 194 David L 21-Jan-04 02:48
Re: reincarnation 207 Milo 21-Jan-04 03:03
Re: reincarnation 215 David L 21-Jan-04 15:41
Re: reincarnation 212 Milo 21-Jan-04 15:58
Re: reincarnation 207 David L 21-Jan-04 22:20
Re: reincarnation 224 Milo 21-Jan-04 22:52
Re: reincarnation 202 David L 22-Jan-04 01:55
Re: reincarnation 197 Milo 22-Jan-04 02:13
Re: reincarnation 171 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 12:44
Re: reincarnation 219 Milo 22-Jan-04 17:00
Re: reincarnation 211 Nebankh 22-Jan-04 17:34
Re: reincarnation 160 Milo 22-Jan-04 19:09
Re: reincarnation 263 David L 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 356 Cesar 22-Jan-04 22:49
Re: reincarnation 281 David L 23-Jan-04 02:37
Re: reincarnation 228 Cesar 23-Jan-04 10:41
Re: reincarnation 289 David L 23-Jan-04 02:53
Re: reincarnation 228 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 09:41
Re: reincarnation 201 David L 23-Jan-04 15:36
Re: reincarnation 225 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 208 HarryWJYoung 23-Jan-04 17:06
Re: reincarnation 214 David L 23-Jan-04 20:28
Re: reincarnation 448 David L 23-Jan-04 20:10
Re: reincarnation 189 Milo 23-Jan-04 20:50
Re: reincarnation 186 David L 23-Jan-04 23:06
Re: reincarnation 187 Milo 23-Jan-04 23:43
Re: reincarnation 207 David L 24-Jan-04 01:04
Re: reincarnation 202 ArmchairObserver 24-Jan-04 07:43
Re: reincarnation 236 Cesar 24-Jan-04 17:31
Re: reincarnation 223 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:31
Re: reincarnation 201 Cesar 24-Jan-04 00:45
Re: reincarnation 204 Milo 22-Jan-04 23:17
Re: reincarnation 178 Zosimos 22-Jan-04 22:53
Re: reincarnation 224 lobo-hotei 19-Jan-04 23:26
Re: reincarnation 224 Zosimos 20-Jan-04 00:27
Re: reincarnation 189 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:08
Re: reincarnation 245 RichardC 20-Jan-04 13:06
Re: reincarnation 216 SunSword 14-Feb-04 18:13
Master of your own ship 379 Richard Fusniak 14-Feb-04 18:31
Re: reincarnation 214 David L 19-Jan-04 23:16
Re: reincarnation 230 newrisingsun 19-Jan-04 23:37
Re: reincarnation 193 David L 20-Jan-04 01:33
Re: reincarnation 206 newrisingsun 20-Jan-04 17:04
Re: reincarnation 177 Saorsa 20-Jan-04 08:46
Re: reincarnation 314 Aarooga 20-Jan-04 16:35
Re: reincarnation 175 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:20
Re: reincarnation 210 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 09:15
Re: reincarnation 193 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 11:58
Re: reincarnation 172 ArmchairObserver 21-Jan-04 15:33
Re: reincarnation 190 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 16:19
Re: reincarnation 237 Aarooga 22-Jan-04 13:13
Re: reincarnation 196 Saorsa 22-Jan-04 14:48
Re: reincarnation 225 Dominick Ohrbeck 20-Jan-04 20:21
Fuzzy 207 Richard Fusniak 20-Jan-04 23:21
Re: Fuzzy 188 Saorsa 21-Jan-04 08:35
Re: Fuzzy 203 Mark Staab 22-Jan-04 21:53
Re: reincarnation 198 Segestan 21-Jan-04 16:33
Re: reincarnation 177 Earache 21-Jan-04 21:34
Re: reincarnation 212 Trygve Hogebol 22-Jan-04 07:17
Re: reincarnation 190 Earache 24-Jan-04 13:07
Re: reincarnation 192 Richard Fusniak 25-Jan-04 21:17
Re: reincarnation 196 Earache 31-Jan-04 15:42
Re: reincarnation 205 Alex S 26-Jan-04 01:56
Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 195 Richard Fusniak 27-Jan-04 01:26
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 194 Alex S 27-Jan-04 15:11
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 196 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 02:04
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 218 Alex S 29-Jan-04 12:13
Planetary Consciousness 180 Trygve Hogebol 30-Jan-04 05:59
Re: Planetary Consciousness 196 Mark Staab 30-Jan-04 16:18
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 261 timewaster 29-Jan-04 16:25
The value of regression 211 Richard Fusniak 31-Jan-04 23:17
Re: The value of regression 198 timewaster 02-Feb-04 03:22
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 227 David L 01-Feb-04 01:28
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 188 Trygve Hogebol 02-Feb-04 03:48
Re: Telepathic link doesn't explain reincarnation 205 Trygve Hogebol 29-Jan-04 02:58
King or pauper 196 Richard Fusniak 29-Jan-04 12:40
Re: King or pauper 194 Saorsa 29-Jan-04 12:51
Re: reincarnation 186 Lee McGiffen 27-Jan-04 10:38


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