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Susan. We all know you love the paranormal talks. Then you put your debunking slippers on and have a nice cup of tea and start debunking - a real hobby of yours.


GG.





Susan Doris Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
>
Quote

Also, there are many people who use
> supernatural powers,
> Who? How? Post a link to a double-blind, or any
> kind of, test which, following the scientific
> method, the only reliable method available to us
> now, demonstrates this. You cannot.
>
Quote

or have access to more than 10% of there
> brains.
> That myth was debunked and shown to be false some
> years ago.
>
Quote

Some come fear, as in stories about people
> in a traumatic accident and come into some kind of
> superhuman power.
> When people suffer physical brain damage, it can
> change the normal functions of their brain. Not
> one of such people has ever acquired any
> supernatural power, since such an idea is purely
> of the imnagination.
>
Quote

Some people are trained, though this kind
> of knowledge is guarded.
> some people, who falsely believe they have some
> supernatural power, teach, or inculcate, or
> indoctrinate others with their ideas, but never
> submit themnselves to any proper testing.
>
Quote

Even the pharaoh's magicians could perform
> many of things that Moses did.
> There were, of course, trained magicians in those
> days as there are today. They learn
> how to perform tricks and practise until they can
> fool most of the people most of the time. Today we
> consider it to be excellent entertainment, but do
> not go around believing that the entertainer
> concerned is using supernatural powers because
> they do not claim such powers. Those that try to
> fool others into thinking they do have
> supernatural powers are frauds, whether they
> understand that or not and in however well-meaning
> a way they fool people.
>
>
> It would be a good idea in my opinion to ask the
> mods to move your post to Paranormal, as there is
> not a word of reality in it.
>
> You have every ight to believe whatever you
> choose, but such stuff belongs in the paranormal
> board here and we can definitely do without two
> paranormal boards.
>
> Susan

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Why can't religion and science both be right? 2367 Jrevans 22-Aug-19 20:15
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 269 Eddie Larry 22-Aug-19 22:04
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 249 Jrevans 22-Aug-19 22:32
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 242 Eddie Larry 22-Aug-19 22:52
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 242 Jrevans 22-Aug-19 23:25
Propaganda or Egotism..... 253 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 23:14
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 255 Jrevans 22-Aug-19 23:19
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 243 Eddie Larry 22-Aug-19 23:27
Mod Note > Threaded vs. Flat View 248 Dr. Troglodyte 22-Aug-19 23:55
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 242 rkmcquillen 23-Aug-19 03:53
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 229 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 12:48
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 231 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 13:53
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 226 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 14:14
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 236 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 15:05
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 229 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 15:20
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 228 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 15:26
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 229 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 15:52
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 222 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 16:33
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 223 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 16:43
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 227 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 16:52
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 235 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 17:36
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 238 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 18:05
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 232 Eddie Larry 23-Aug-19 18:07
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 223 Itatw70s 24-Aug-19 00:15
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 221 Eddie Larry 24-Aug-19 13:57
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 213 Itatw70s 27-Aug-19 11:52
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 231 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 17:30
Share your knowhow!!! 227 Itatw70s 24-Aug-19 00:44
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 236 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 17:07
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 222 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 17:37
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 222 Susan Doris 23-Aug-19 17:59
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 230 Itatw70s 23-Aug-19 18:23
The universe is not mysterious 225 greengirl5 23-Aug-19 23:27
Science vs.God? 237 drrayeye 23-Aug-19 23:53
Here we go again 233 drrayeye 23-Aug-19 23:48
Re: Here we go again 232 Itatw70s 24-Aug-19 00:28
Why pretend? 230 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 03:28
Re: Why pretend? 223 Itatw70s 25-Aug-19 21:04
Re: Why pretend? 220 Jrevans 25-Aug-19 21:39
Re: Why pretend? 226 Eddie Larry 25-Aug-19 22:09
Re: Why pretend? 232 Jrevans 25-Aug-19 22:59
Re: Why pretend? 219 Eddie Larry 26-Aug-19 00:48
Re: Why pretend? 235 Itatw70s 27-Aug-19 00:42
Re: Why pretend? 219 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 02:17
Re: Why pretend? 219 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 07:40
Re: Why pretend? 205 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 08:16
Re: Why pretend? 214 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 09:47
Re: Why pretend? 223 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 09:59
Re: Why pretend? 215 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 10:04
Re: Why pretend? 209 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 10:16
Re: Why pretend? 236 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 10:43
How many NASA engineers 232 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 11:28
Lots of scientists and engineers at JPL and CalTech 226 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 11:36
Re: Lots of scientists and engineers at JPL and CalTech 222 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 11:50
Show respect 230 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 12:22
a Re: Show respect 228 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 12:54
Seeing faults in one self 219 greengirl5 28-Aug-19 14:02
Christianity 224 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 12:10
Re: Christianity 229 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 13:00
Re: Christianity 234 Richard Fusniak 26-Aug-19 22:32
Re: Christianity 225 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:02
Re: Christianity 218 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Christianity 232 Eddie Larry 26-Aug-19 23:16
Re: Christianity 224 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:48
Re: Christianity 219 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 02:13
Re: Christianity 223 Richard Fusniak 28-Aug-19 21:54
Re: Christianity 219 Jrevans 28-Aug-19 22:40
Re: Christianity 233 Richard Fusniak 30-Aug-19 20:05
Re: Christianity 227 Jrevans 01-Sep-19 12:13
Re: Christianity 211 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 13:16
Re: Christianity 220 greengirl5 01-Sep-19 14:23
Re: Christianity 218 Jrevans 01-Sep-19 14:37
Re: Christianity 221 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 15:21
Re: Christianity 226 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 15:37
Re: Christianity 229 Jrevans 01-Sep-19 15:43
Re: Christianity 217 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 15:50
NONSENSE 235 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 23:04
Re: NONSENSE 216 Susan Doris 02-Sep-19 05:32
Normal (in science/math) 229 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 06:25
Re: Normal (in science/math) 210 shando 02-Sep-19 11:36
Re: Normal (in science/math) 212 Susan Doris 02-Sep-19 12:37
Re: Christianity 214 Eddie Larry 01-Sep-19 23:51
Re: Christianity and the supernormal 219 greengirl5 02-Sep-19 00:51
Re: Christianity 219 Susan Doris 01-Sep-19 15:45
Re: Christianity 210 Eddie Larry 02-Sep-19 04:44
Science, spiritualism, and evangelical atheism 219 drrayeye 01-Sep-19 15:52
Paranormal boards and debunking 186 greengirl5 02-Sep-19 00:44
Re: Christianity 224 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:58
Re: Christianity 217 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 02:16
A basic human right.... 156 Itatw70s 02-Nov-19 23:59
Re: Christianity 213 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 05:02
Re: Christianity 213 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 13:34
Re: Christianity 212 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 14:44
Re: Christianity 213 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 04:58
Very dangerous 212 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 06:57
Re: Christianity 199 Nolondil 27-Aug-19 16:57
Re: Why pretend? 235 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 16:39
Pangenesis 208 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 17:48
Re: Pangenesis 211 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 18:22
Re: Pangenesis 212 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 18:26
Re: Pangenesis 206 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 23:05
Re: Pangenesis 215 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:13
Re: Pangenesis 159 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 00:21
Re: Pangenesis 215 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 05:11
I already explained it, 222 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 06:31
Re: I already explained it, 203 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 07:13
If 205 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 09:42
Re: If 208 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 10:01
Re: If 193 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 11:34
Re: If 207 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 05:23
Descartes and Elizabeth 219 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 07:08
Re: I already explained it, 220 Richard Fusniak 30-Aug-19 20:10
Re: I already explained it, 221 Eddie Larry 30-Aug-19 23:21
Re: I already explained it, 160 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 00:30
No straddling 164 drrayeye 03-Nov-19 06:04
Re: No straddling 155 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 19:10
Re: Pangenesis 216 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 20:50
Re: Pangenesis 210 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 23:08
Re: Pangenesis 208 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 23:37
Reason for posting 210 greengirl5 27-Aug-19 15:06
Re: Reason for posting 204 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 15:44
Where did all the stuff come from? 194 greengirl5 27-Aug-19 21:53
Re: Where did all the stuff come from? 221 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 04:50
Are you sure 214 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 11:47
Re: Are you sure 211 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 11:52
Re: Why pretend? 151 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 19:44
Re: Why pretend? 206 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 06:06
Re: Why pretend? 223 cloister 26-Aug-19 06:42
Re: Why pretend? 211 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 07:56
Re: Why pretend? 218 cloister 26-Aug-19 08:18
Re: Why pretend? 205 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 10:00
Re: Why pretend? 227 cloister 26-Aug-19 15:06
Re: Why pretend? 212 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 15:19
Re: Why pretend? 242 cloister 26-Aug-19 18:47
Re: Why pretend? 212 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 21:27
Re: Why pretend? 201 cloister 27-Aug-19 05:29
Re: Why pretend? 187 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 06:24
Re: Why pretend? 211 cloister 27-Aug-19 07:17
Re: Why pretend? 203 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 07:31
Re: Why pretend? 219 cloister 27-Aug-19 10:04
Re: Why pretend? 205 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 10:45
Re: Why pretend? 215 cloister 27-Aug-19 11:30
Re: Why pretend? 202 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 13:53
Re: Why pretend? 201 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 15:00
Re: Why pretend? 221 Corpuscles 27-Aug-19 15:45
Re: Why pretend? 200 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 17:55
Re: Why pretend? 206 Corpuscles 27-Aug-19 18:26
Re: Why pretend? 228 cloister 27-Aug-19 19:33
Re: Why pretend? 203 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 05:12
Re: Why pretend? 230 cloister 28-Aug-19 07:11
Re: Why pretend? 204 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 08:35
Re: Why pretend? 219 cloister 28-Aug-19 11:00
Re: Why pretend? 201 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 12:56
Re: Why pretend? 205 cloister 28-Aug-19 13:38
Re: Why pretend? 207 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 15:04
Re: Why pretend? 207 cloister 28-Aug-19 16:11
Re: Why pretend? 195 Eddie Larry 28-Aug-19 16:15
saying "don't know." 196 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 16:27
Re: saying "don't know." 203 Eddie Larry 28-Aug-19 16:47
Trapped 205 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 14:00
Re: Trapped 210 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 15:07
Congratulations 213 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 16:31
Re: Congratulations 197 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 18:07
Every once in awhile 206 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 19:52
Re: Every once in awhile 201 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 20:39
When you comment about science 209 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 01:30
Re: When you comment about science 201 Susan Doris 29-Aug-19 05:06
Almost everyone who posts at GHMB 200 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 06:17
Re: Almost everyone who posts at GHMB 200 Susan Doris 29-Aug-19 07:00
No room for arrogance in science or spirit 208 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 07:38
Re: No room for arrogance in science or spirit 192 Susan Doris 29-Aug-19 10:15
Unlucky number 13 224 drrayeye 29-Aug-19 13:11
Re: Unlucky number 13 203 Susan Doris 29-Aug-19 13:45
Unknown possibilities 204 greengirl5 28-Aug-19 14:19
Re: Unknown possibilities 213 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 15:11
Re: Unknown possibilities 209 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 17:00
Re: Why pretend? 206 Eddie Larry 28-Aug-19 13:17
Natural law 206 greengirl5 28-Aug-19 14:28
Re: Natural law 204 Eddie Larry 28-Aug-19 14:37
Pantheisim or Pan- en -theism? 216 Corpuscles 28-Aug-19 23:48
Re: Pantheisim or Pan- en -theism? 215 Jrevans 29-Aug-19 01:52
No chance! 209 greengirl5 29-Aug-19 03:50
Re: No chance! 212 Corpuscles 29-Aug-19 08:03
Re: No chance! 198 greengirl5 29-Aug-19 13:30
Re: No chance! 208 Jrevans 29-Aug-19 21:29
Dreams----crucial or not? 151 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 20:12
Re: No chance! 213 Corpuscles 29-Aug-19 22:29
Re: No chance! 154 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 20:03
Well done 210 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 13:54
Re: Well done 200 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 15:44
Not so easy to dismiss 192 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 16:20
Re: Not so easy to dismiss 201 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 18:10
What you call "patronizing' 197 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 18:58
differences of perspective, but . . . 196 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 20:04
Re: Why pretend? 199 Eddie Larry 27-Aug-19 21:50
Re: Why pretend? 212 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 00:05
Re: Why pretend? 201 Eddie Larry 28-Aug-19 03:56
Re: Why pretend? 197 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 04:30
Re: Why pretend? 193 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 05:01
Re: Why pretend? 198 Corpuscles 28-Aug-19 03:36
Re: Why pretend? 199 Corpuscles 28-Aug-19 04:58
Re: Why pretend? 208 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 06:34
Re: Why pretend? 210 Jrevans 27-Aug-19 15:54
There are other possibilities 211 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 17:19
Re: There are other possibilities 208 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 18:10
Big difference 204 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 19:26
Re: Big difference 209 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 06:45
Who made nothing? 197 greengirl5 28-Aug-19 02:05
Re: Why pretend? 198 Susan Doris 27-Aug-19 06:21
Blew by you 205 drrayeye 27-Aug-19 20:16
Nope 202 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 02:04
Re: Why pretend? 203 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 05:31
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 213 GramPong 23-Aug-19 20:23
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 221 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 00:58
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 209 GramPong 24-Aug-19 17:02
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 209 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 17:45
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 220 GramPong 24-Aug-19 21:35
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 215 jazzmumbles 25-Aug-19 01:36
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 204 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 05:59
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 213 jazzmumbles 28-Aug-19 01:13
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 192 Susan Doris 28-Aug-19 06:53
Music is for survival and love is a chemical! 196 greengirl5 26-Aug-19 08:13
Re: Music is for survival and love is a chemical! 211 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 10:07
Re: Music is for survival and love is a chemical! 200 greengirl5 26-Aug-19 22:45
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 209 rkmcquillen 26-Aug-19 20:20
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 202 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 20:41
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 214 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 21:31
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 193 Jrevans 26-Aug-19 21:55
Don't forget the oral traditions of indigenous tribes.... 214 Itatw70s 25-Aug-19 19:32
Mod Note > Topic Moved 240 Dr. Troglodyte 23-Aug-19 15:54
Great start 234 drrayeye 23-Aug-19 17:11
Re: Great start 220 Jrevans 23-Aug-19 18:01
Re: Great start 210 Itatw70s 24-Aug-19 00:37
Re: Great start 231 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 01:25
Patterns of Evidence 212 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 03:37
Re: Great start 211 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 06:26
Re: Great start 213 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 13:11
Re: Great start 212 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 17:34
Re: Great start 212 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 17:43
Re: Great start 203 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 17:51
Let's help James explore 204 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 13:15
Re: Let's help James explore 215 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 13:24
Re: Let's help James explore 202 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 15:32
Re: Let's help James explore 206 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 16:19
Re: Let's help James explore 215 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 17:03
Re: Let's help James explore 210 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 17:23
More detail 209 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 18:31
interesting history 233 grangram 26-Aug-19 19:33
Re: interesting history 200 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 23:17
Re: interesting history 220 grangram 26-Aug-19 23:38
How about Noah's Ark 208 grangram 26-Aug-19 20:40
Re: How about Noah's Ark 201 Susan Doris 26-Aug-19 21:38
Thanks 208 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 23:20
Rohl and the tower of babel? 211 grangram 28-Aug-19 09:51
Gabrieli oldstyle 187 drrayeye 28-Aug-19 14:18
Sometimes words get in the way 230 grangram 03-Sep-19 06:02
Finally watched both of them 188 drrayeye 12-Sep-19 07:44
Noah's Ark 253 grangram 12-Sep-19 09:19
Re: Let's help James explore 209 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 16:39
Re: Let's help James explore 216 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 17:22
Re: Let's help James explore 210 Jrevans 24-Aug-19 17:36
Re: Let's help James explore 203 Susan Doris 24-Aug-19 17:58
Re: Let's help James explore 209 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 19:22
Re: Let's help James explore 205 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 06:06
Re: Let's help James explore 203 drrayeye 25-Aug-19 11:32
Re: Let's help James explore 206 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 13:01
Quality and Sensitivity 213 drrayeye 25-Aug-19 15:04
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 222 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 15:51
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 220 Eddie Larry 25-Aug-19 16:07
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 203 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 16:40
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 202 PB Bytes 25-Aug-19 16:59
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 209 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 17:14
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 218 PB Bytes 25-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 222 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 17:51
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 213 Jrevans 25-Aug-19 16:43
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 215 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 17:45
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 216 PB Bytes 25-Aug-19 17:53
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 203 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 18:02
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 231 PB Bytes 25-Aug-19 18:16
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 236 Jrevans 25-Aug-19 17:57
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 225 Susan Doris 25-Aug-19 18:06
Re: Quality and Sensitivity 193 shando 02-Sep-19 12:16
I'm not a teacher 234 drrayeye 26-Aug-19 06:58
Re: I'm not a teacher 233 Eddie Larry 26-Aug-19 14:28
Re: I'm not a teacher 194 shando 02-Sep-19 12:21
Re: Great start 149 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 20:40
Re: Great start 259 drrayeye 24-Aug-19 15:28
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 215 Susan Doris 29-Aug-19 12:42
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 225 Jrevans 29-Aug-19 21:43
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 226 Susan Doris 30-Aug-19 07:14
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 226 Jrevans 30-Aug-19 12:15
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 206 Itatw70s 03-Nov-19 21:00
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 205 shando 02-Sep-19 18:04
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 215 Susan Doris 03-Sep-19 05:17
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 187 Susan Doris 04-Mar-20 06:42
Salvation - another myth 205 Richard Fusniak 23-Oct-19 13:24
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 183 SandyJesse 01-Nov-19 22:27
Susan's thread--"from jrevans" 214 drrayeye 02-Sep-19 20:57
Mod Note > Duplicate Topic Merged 211 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Sep-19 21:25
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 198 Mayavitch 10-Oct-19 20:33
Re: Why can't religion and science both be right? 180 rulebook54 19-Oct-19 15:52


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