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Susan Doris Wrote:

Consider this: all the power,
> influence, help and guidance you believe you have
> from any God, or Holy Spirit etc is actually all
> created and thought of by you in your
> brain.

Ray: You're way over-crediting (or over simplifying) the brain, here. For the brain to play any role at all, it must be empowered to both control and respond to information received or transmitted, through and to our sense organs. The cognitive revolution of the 60's has downgraded the brain a bit into being much like the hardware of a computer, powered by software applications.

Exactly what these applications might be, where they come from, and how they're powered are all up for discussion. Descartes allowed spiritual information to enter the mind through the senses, but was unaware of the role of genetics in human ontogeny. We now have the possibility of dna providing an architecture of design, with sensory modifications even while the infant is in the womb. The hardware is designed into the body; the software becomes the mind. Cogito, et sum is alive and well in the 21st century.




Quote

Is there a God? Bad question. One needs to
> at least define God first--and I can't. In
> confir-mation, I was taught that "God is a Spirit
> with the highest perfections." Somehow, that's not
> enough.

Susan: When I went to Confirmation
> classes, we had to learn the Catechism off by
> heart – no problem, the memorisation was easy,
> but when I started asking questions , I was told
> there wasn’t time or something – can’t
> remember exactly, but I do remember asking
> questions! And back in that time, this was simply
> not acceptable.

Ray: In my confirmation, I was encouraged-even required--to ask questions, but I don't remember many discussions. My confirmation Bible, that my son took with him to college, was loaded with hand written notes from my high school days. The one attempt at communication and exploration I was responsible for was an invitation to a Catholic Priest to talk with my Protestant Youth group. It led me to write a 20 page paper, entitled, "Catholics and Protestants, separated Brothers."

That led my mother to call in the ministers to re-educate me: but the ministers liked the paper I wrote, so she was relieved. In college, I began singing in lots of different churches, and accompanied a roommate to meetings with an Episcopal Arch Deacon--as part of his becoming an Episcopal priest. I got into trouble with the Arch Deacon by raising the issue of reincarnation for discussion.

As part of my study of the Russian language, I joined a Russian folk group, and sang in Orthodox services--eventually visiting a Russian Orthodox Monastery in New York. Along the way, I had countless personal discussions of Religion with friends and family. Although a considerable number of such discussions were with secularists and agnostics, I can't remember discussions during that undergraduate time with atheist students: I do remember one outspoken atheist professor that I worked with. He made a point of his atheism.

Ray:
Quote

We could anthropomorphize--in fact, we must
> anthropomorphize, but what we come up with is
> pretty lame: either a super duper human that can't
> be killed--or a mysterious force. The super duper
> human we've been imagining most recently is in
> some other world of stars and planets--some Star
> Wars persona--or an invisible "force." But is that
> good enough?

Susan: The important point to remember is that we are
> imagining whatever god we are talking about
> and there’s a strong clue there – i.e. no
> reality to know!

Ray: agreed.

> We're really struggling. Maybe we can't adequately
> define God--in which case we can't even ask
> whether or not there is a God. Where do we go from
> there? [/quote]

Susan: We stick with the science and, having learnt and
> understood that objective evidence is what is most
> likely to be reliable, we no longer need, nor have
> we needed to for a long time now, to posit some
> creator, especially since we know that in order
> for something to be tested and found to be
> falsifiable, it must be observed in the first
> place.

Ray: I think you misunderstand the limitations of science, here. All theories of science are made up fantasies--just like anthropomorphic theories of god. These fantasies are studied as parts of paradigms and falsified, until another paradigm emerges. Although these fantasies and paradigms get better through the falsification process, we don't know that they are getting "truer."

And, of course, science cannot study anything directly in the spiritual world--and the indirect evidence is less than overwhelming.

>
Quote

I know I don't have the slightest idea what
> God is, but I do have some Spiritual clues--and
> have made a connection.


Susan: And here you talk of ‘spiritual clues’ but
> they are just as imagined as the god they are
> clues to.

Ray: No. The clues are provided through personal experience--one's own personal experiences are not imagined.


>
Quote

I do have regular contact with the Holy
> Spirit--and I'm confident that a manifestation of
> the true God is within me.

Susan: And that is a very strong claim. Where is its
> foundation? Where is the substance?

Ray: The foundation is the Christian Trinity. The substance is through experience living the Christian way. I experience a much deeper sense of God's presence than I did when I was younger. Someone who reported a similar personal Spiritual growth was Leo Tolstoy.

>
Quote

Looking at a reflection of the sun--or
> looking through a filter--or looking at a recorded
> image gives us more information than most of us
> can meaningfully process with no possibility of
> harm.
>
> So, we can indirectly gather scraps of information
> about God--if we try. It may even be easy if we're
> not too ambitious.

Susan: All information, bar none, that you gain about God
> is from human ideas and thoughts.

Ray: All information about "god" (small "g") is from human ideas and thoughts. Information about God (capital "G") is a different story altogether.


Susan: Consider the fact that if anyone anywhere in
> the world comes up with a verifiable, falsifiable
> (etc) fact about God, then it will become a part
> of the knowledge base we have; and if it happens
> before my life ends, I will be amongst all those
> who acknowledge it as such. Not much time left for
> that for me, though!!


Ray: I am absolutely certain that no one will come up with any evidence of any kind that tells us anything at all about God that any of us will ever understand.

I will comment with full text in a separate comment at a later time.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Musings about God 1626 drrayeye 03-Aug-19 15:13
Re: Musings about God 176 Susan Doris 03-Aug-19 15:36
Re: Musings about God 175 Eddie Larry 03-Aug-19 16:07
Re: Musings about God 196 drrayeye 03-Aug-19 17:19
Re: Musings about God 174 Eddie Larry 03-Aug-19 20:03
Re: Musings about God 176 drrayeye 03-Aug-19 20:30
Re: Musings about God 159 Eddie Larry 03-Aug-19 20:44
Re: Musings about God 184 Itatw70s 03-Aug-19 21:00
Re: Musings about God 169 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 00:54
Re: Musings about God 161 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 01:12
Re: Musings about God 173 Eddie Larry 04-Aug-19 03:08
Re: Musings about God 161 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 03:25
The view from Science Mountain, partly cloudy, chance of rain. 157 Eddie Larry 04-Aug-19 17:24
Re: Musings about God 186 Naveen 03-Aug-19 21:29
Re: Musings about God 167 drrayeye 03-Aug-19 23:46
Re: Musings about God 171 Naveen 04-Aug-19 20:54
Re: Musings about God 159 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 21:04
All is all there is 159 greengirl5 04-Aug-19 07:42
Re: Musings about God 193 Mo 04-Aug-19 03:32
Re: Musings about God 160 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 07:02
Re: Musings about God 166 Itatw70s 04-Aug-19 16:21
Re: Musings about God 160 Eddie Larry 04-Aug-19 19:33
Re: Musings about God 163 Naveen 04-Aug-19 21:08
Re: Musings about God 172 Susan Doris 04-Aug-19 06:59
Thanks 158 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 11:42
Clarification requested 218 eyeofhorus33 04-Aug-19 12:45
Re: Clarification requested 176 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 14:52
Re: Clarification requested 163 Susan Doris 04-Aug-19 16:46
Re: Clarification requested 174 Itatw70s 04-Aug-19 17:04
That book! 163 greengirl5 04-Aug-19 22:50
Re: Musings about God 170 Itatw70s 04-Aug-19 23:30
Re: Musings about God 166 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 23:33
Re: Musings about God 160 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 05:26
Re: Musings about God 161 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 09:01
Re: Musings about God 162 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 11:20
Re: Musings about God 166 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 13:18
Re: Musings about God 162 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 18:19
Re: Musings about God 163 Susan Doris 06-Aug-19 05:50
atheism 159 drrayeye 06-Aug-19 06:37
Re: atheism 158 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 11:37
Re: atheism 164 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 12:11
Re: atheism 154 GramPong 08-Aug-19 12:20
Re: atheism 161 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 12:40
Re: atheism 151 GramPong 08-Aug-19 14:23
Re: atheism 163 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 14:37
A Christian God, a Muslim God etc. 148 greengirl5 08-Aug-19 22:11
God is not a "he" 156 greengirl5 08-Aug-19 21:57
Re: God is not a "he" 157 drrayeye 08-Aug-19 22:56
Re: God is not a "he" 149 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:37
Real God 148 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 08:55
Re: Real God 165 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 09:41
Re: Real God 157 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 10:55
Re: Real God 158 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 12:24
Re: Real God 160 Eddie Larry 09-Aug-19 13:59
Re: Real God 155 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 15:40
Re: Real God 153 Eddie Larry 09-Aug-19 16:52
Re: Real God and real Jesus 163 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 00:09
Re: Real God and real Jesus 151 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 05:03
Common Experience 163 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 17:27
Re: Real God 153 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 19:45
Been studied in great detail 162 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Been studied in great detail 159 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:12
Re: Real God 144 GramPong 10-Aug-19 12:07
The trouble with the Christian religion 156 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 12:29
Sin 152 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 13:32
Re: Sin 162 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Sin 136 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 15:58
Re: Sin 147 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 16:07
Re: Sin 154 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 16:24
Re: Sin 151 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 16:54
Re: Sin 162 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 17:50
Re: Sin 160 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:28
Re: Sin 153 Eddie Larry 11-Aug-19 03:35
Re: Sin 144 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 07:20
Re: Sin 159 Eddie Larry 11-Aug-19 14:14
Re: Sin 139 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 21:59
Re: The trouble with the Christian religion 161 GramPong 10-Aug-19 13:58
Burning in hell 159 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 23:39
Re: Burning in hell 150 GramPong 11-Aug-19 00:08
Who? 145 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:33
Re: Who? 175 GramPong 11-Aug-19 00:57
Re: Who? 165 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 07:03
Re: Real God 166 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 15:16
Re: Real God 152 Itatw70s 10-Aug-19 21:19
Re: Real God 161 GramPong 10-Aug-19 22:59
Growing up.... 160 Itatw70s 11-Aug-19 22:51
Praise God/praise my brain 162 greengirl5 09-Aug-19 23:46
Re: God is not a "he" 158 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 19:06
Re: atheism 156 Enigcom 08-Aug-19 12:20
Trusting one's personal experiences 168 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 07:23
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 157 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 09:10
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 160 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 11:28
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 165 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 13:53
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 166 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 15:27
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 169 Eddie Larry 05-Aug-19 15:28
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 158 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 16:46
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 159 Eddie Larry 05-Aug-19 18:49
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences 165 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 16:06
The natural world and the universe IS God 168 greengirl5 05-Aug-19 22:24
Re: The natural world and the universe IS God 166 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 14:40
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences, the ingested God experience. 165 Itatw70s 05-Aug-19 22:43
Re: Trusting one's personal experiences, the ingested God experience. 158 GramPong 05-Aug-19 23:44
In search of the lost chord 181 grangram 04-Aug-19 12:27
The big electron 175 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 16:07
Prayers.... 180 Itatw70s 04-Aug-19 16:50
Re: Prayers.... 177 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 21:24
Re: Prayers.... 151 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 23:15
Re: Musings about God 173 Enigcom 04-Aug-19 21:14
God and religion 172 greengirl5 04-Aug-19 23:07
Re: God and religion 176 Itatw70s 04-Aug-19 23:15
It is well with my Soul 168 drrayeye 04-Aug-19 23:52
Re: God and religion 168 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 05:33
Religion and Spiritual Development in Childhood 174 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 06:26
Lots of very young children know things they "should not" know 170 greengirl5 05-Aug-19 06:49
Re: Lots of very young children know things they "should not" know 160 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 07:19
Is Gerda basically correct? 167 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 11:47
Re: Is Gerda basically correct? 170 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 14:25
Re: Is Gerda basically correct? 158 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 15:02
Re: Is Gerda basically correct? 166 Susan Doris 05-Aug-19 16:54
Who said what? 165 greengirl5 05-Aug-19 22:40
Who should I believe? 155 greengirl5 05-Aug-19 22:37
Re: God and religion 166 Itatw70s 05-Aug-19 23:36
Re: God and religion 163 Susan Doris 06-Aug-19 06:03
Re: God and religion 148 drrayeye 06-Aug-19 06:32
Re: God and religion 153 Susan Doris 06-Aug-19 07:03
No excuse--pure laziness 162 drrayeye 06-Aug-19 07:43
Re: God and religion 152 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 14:55
Re: God and religion 158 Susan Doris 08-Aug-19 15:58
Re: God and religion 156 Itatw70s 08-Aug-19 17:06
Reincarnation has been researched by many 148 greengirl5 08-Aug-19 22:21
Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 153 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 00:05
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 154 GramPong 09-Aug-19 01:28
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 135 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 11:28
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 159 GramPong 09-Aug-19 12:08
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 157 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 14:10
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 154 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 22:36
Re: Come, dance in the moonlight, Susan!!! 145 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:54
Re: Reincarnation has been researched by many 146 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 06:47
verified? by whom? 145 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 09:03
Re: verified? by whom? 150 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 09:44
The lazy way doesn't work 131 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 15:18
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 149 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 15:50
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 152 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 16:46
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 138 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 22:04
Re: The crazy way doesn't work!!! 182 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 22:49
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 155 Eddie Larry 09-Aug-19 16:55
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 151 Susan Doris 09-Aug-19 22:10
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 141 Eddie Larry 09-Aug-19 22:18
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 152 Itatw70s 09-Aug-19 23:03
Science 149 drrayeye 09-Aug-19 23:41
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 156 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:21
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 150 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 05:47
Re: The lazy way doesn't work 155 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 09:02
Spiitual blindness 149 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 12:52
Spiritual blindness 146 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 12:56
Re: Spiitual blindness 146 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 15:27
Re: Spiitual blindness 142 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 16:09
Re: Spiitual blindness 147 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 17:03
Childhood faith 156 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 20:16
Discovering reality 151 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 00:32
Finding what you seek 161 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 00:28
Re: Finding what you seek 143 Itatw70s 10-Aug-19 21:42
Posting frequency 147 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 22:48
Re: Posting frequency 147 GramPong 10-Aug-19 23:17
Re: Posting frequency 146 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 08:17
Re: Posting frequency 146 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 09:02
Re: Posting frequency 144 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 09:41
Re: Posting frequency 152 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 12:58
Re: Posting frequency 136 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 13:02
Re: Posting frequency 150 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 22:05
Re: Posting frequency 155 Itatw70s 11-Aug-19 23:15
How about 158 drrayeye 12-Aug-19 03:45
Re: Posting frequency 151 Susan Doris 12-Aug-19 05:10
Agreed, but 140 drrayeye 12-Aug-19 08:10
Re: Agreed, but 141 greengirl5 12-Aug-19 23:13
Trusting or not what we read 136 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 00:21
Re: Trusting or not what we read 145 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 05:31
Re: Trusting or not what we read 142 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 07:15
Re: Trusting or not what we read 139 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 09:10
Re: Trusting or not what we read 144 greengirl5 10-Aug-19 12:35
Re: Trusting or not what we read 143 Susan Doris 10-Aug-19 15:31
Re: Trusting or not what we read 143 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 00:00
Re: Trusting or not what we read 138 Susan Doris 11-Aug-19 12:58
Re: Trusting or not what we read 145 greengirl5 11-Aug-19 22:31
Re: Trusting or not what we read 160 Susan Doris 12-Aug-19 14:39
Re: Trusting or not what we read 148 greengirl5 12-Aug-19 23:28
Re: Trusting or not what we read 141 Susan Doris 13-Aug-19 05:14
Doing her homework? 139 drrayeye 13-Aug-19 05:42
Re: Doing her homework? 150 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 06:32
Re: Doing her homework? 138 Susan Doris 13-Aug-19 14:28
Re: Doing her homework? 262 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 22:53
Re: Trusting or not what we read 135 greengirl5 13-Aug-19 06:29
Re: Trusting or not what we read 152 Susan Doris 13-Aug-19 14:34
Re: Trusting or not what we read 145 GramPong 10-Aug-19 12:21
Belief vs. Way 155 drrayeye 10-Aug-19 14:04
Re: Belief vs. Way 152 GramPong 11-Aug-19 12:05
Re: Trusting or not what we read 146 Itatw70s 10-Aug-19 22:03
Re: Musings about God 194 jazzmumbles 05-Aug-19 00:53
Re: Musings about God 171 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 01:44
Re: Musings about God 188 jazzmumbles 05-Aug-19 12:59
Re: Musings about God 173 drrayeye 05-Aug-19 14:53
Re: Musings about God 195 jazzmumbles 07-Aug-19 01:17
Re: Musings about God 193 ray wakila 05-Aug-19 01:26
Re: Musings about God 183 Itatw70s 07-Aug-19 11:56
Re: Musings about God 188 Itatw70s 07-Aug-19 15:21
Re: Musings about God 179 Enigcom 08-Aug-19 12:05
Re: Musings about God 155 Itatw70s 11-Aug-19 20:39
Re: Musings about God 146 Archaic 13-Aug-19 13:14
Re: Musings about God 154 Susan Doris 13-Aug-19 14:37
Re: Musings about God 162 Archaic 13-Aug-19 16:23


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