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eyeofhorus33 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Thanks Susan.
>
> Mark said he thought that this was my reading /
> interpretation / conclusion of the ancient
> Egyptian pharaonic divine birth myth.
>
> He is mistaken: it is the conclusion of various
> eminent academics whose expertise is in the period
> immediately preceding the birth of Christianity,
> in a place that was a stone's throw from
> Jerusalem.
>
Matt, as I said you you, directly, you did a fine job of articulating the Hatsheput-Jesus 'coincidence' well, and I also acknowledged that I can see why this connection would lead some to conclude the purely mundane narrative, which is that the Jesus birth narrative was 'borrowed' from this particular source.

One thing that fails to impress here, is your use of language, regarding this being the opinion of "eminent" scholars. Such rhetoric may pass in certain circles, but for me, as one who has spent ample time in advanced education circles, I have LONG SINCE known that there is no correlation between academic attainment and the proper (fuller) use of reason.

Nonetheless, let me extend what I had written to you to include these various scholars: You present a very good mundane explanation, regarding why the Jesus story may have been borrowed from Egypt.

That said, I wonder how many of these eminent scholars entered this investigation with a flawed, limited a prior assumption: that being that there is no God, that miracles don't occur, and that, therefore, the ONLY explanations that are 'rational' are mundane ones. Sounds familiar, doesn't it? Academics - not all but many - are famous for such secular thinking. In the most depraved cases they completely ignore enormous bodies of evidence that suggest the contrary. That being the case, their entire approach is flawed because it is arbitrary, and all of the degrees and memberships to elite academic circles won't change that one bit.

Of course, many of the academics who practice this kind of thing are well aware of the arbitrary-nonscientific foundation of their approach. And so, rather than admit to that, they seek to conceal it, because they know that exposing one's presuppositions levels the playing field.

In the one corner, you have yours truly, who will say upfront that explanations for various occurrences can be either supernatural or mundane in nature.

In the other, you have types like yourself: who insist that only mundane explanations are possible. Remember when you once told me that 'miracles' don't occur? That, after I told you that I had directly experienced one. And just so we're clear, what I'm referring to was not what I described to Malcolm regarding my Easter Sunday experience. That episode will not be discussed here either, btw. For now, I wish to remind you of a recent post that you apparently have chosen to ignore, or, more likely, I presently think, cannot answer to in any credible mundane way. Such evasion, if it is that, is wholly in keeping with the individuals I am referring to in this paragraph.

"To my understanding, one modern example would appear to be Fatima. Are you familiar with the basic story, and how might you explain that episode in mundane terms?"

Rather than answer this, or at least attempt to, you seem to have ignored it. Then, in your next reply to me, here, rather than speak to me directly, as we had throughout this thread, you choose to speak to me through Susan. This is more passive-aggressive bullshit, as far as I'm concerned. Answer me directly on these points, or our discussion in this thread is over.

My larger point is this. Christianity is rich, very rich, in episodes that suggest non-mundane interactions. Rarely are we able to work with information as public as what the Fatima episode appears to be. It comes as no surprise that there will be some academics who insist on ignoring such episodes because, as I was saying, the facts don't conform to the their very narrow, arbitrary (and generally concealed) dogmatic suppositions.

Willful ignorance not a function of intellectual prowress. It is wholly unrelated to academic attainment. When taken to its illogical extreme, which in this case entails ignoring all of the alleged miracle stories that occurred after the lives of Jesus and the apostles, the stage is set to attack the foundations of traditional Christianity. And well, since, or as they will say, It is unscientific and not 'rational' to even consider supernatural intervention or, more generally, non-mundane explanations, it follows that the entire New Testament or - carefully selected parts - 'must' be BS. The net result in this discussion, is that the Virgin birth of Jesus must be an example of cultural appropriation. Yawn.

When it comes to Fatima, I haven't heard of any convincing counter arguments, or ways of explaining, in mundane terms, which what was "much, much more likely," to use your own words in regards the virgin birth.

Perhaps you've heard one, Matt. Or, maybe you agree with Tom, that it was all a "mass hallucination." That doesn't sound very mundane to me. Maybe it does to you. I (and other reasonable thinkers, credentialed or not) would require evidence of mass hallucinations occurring before. Let's see the evidence showing that there are precedents for this. Or, let's hear your other mundane explanation, Matt. You have the stage. In fact, you've had it for a couple of days now.

At this point I would be inclined to believe that you haven't carefully considered the Fatima story. I say this because it has been rather well-buried. If that is correct, you are likely the victim of mass willful ignorance, as this is surely the kind of story that 'historians' like the ones I mentioned above would certainly ignore, because the details aren't easily refuted and don't fit inside their arbitrarily defined, narrow conceptual box.

1. But that doesn't have to stop you from taking a close look now, does it!?. Get back to us on Fatima, if you will. I'd love to hear a good mundane explanation. As I just showed you, through my handling of this 'virgin birth' thread, I have no problem being willing to acknowledge good mundane explanations - when I hear one.

2. Here's something else for you to consider. In this case I would ask for two things:
First, tell us what you see in this video: [www.youtube.com]
Second, tell us what you think the mundane explanation might be.


> If the Bible story of the Exodus is to be
> considered an historical fact then it is no
> surprise that the Canaanite tribe of Israel (those
> who fled Egypt under Moses and who settled in
> Canaa) are the only tribe to have believed in
> resurrection
because this belief was
> appropriated and assimilated from the dominant
> Egyptian culture under which, according to the
> Bible, these Israelites had been enslaved for
> generations.
>
> It would seem that when they fled Egypt, the
> Israelites took more than their possessions!
>

"Seem," in your opinion.

3. By the way, have you been following the Shroud of Turin discussion? - and please don't even mention the long-since falsified 1988 dating results (another thing that some "eminent scholars" seem to keep throwing out there.)It would seem that your side is losing that debate badly, my friend.

4. And that reminds me. According to Numbers, we can assume that about 2 million Jews were involved in the Exodus. If this is fiction - and I will be the first to acknowledge that the story is bizarre - then can you tell me how such a bizarre story became regarded as historical fact?? What's the prevailing mundane explanation there, Matt? Don't you think that some people in such a large group would have sought make it known, even covertly, that this story was installed at some point, if it were pure fiction...? Of course, you would! There's ample precedent for that.

Regrettably, and just so you know, you've disappointed me by addressing me through Susan. As such, unless you answer these 4 questions directly - as I have done here to you, throughout - know that you can expect me to drop this discussion, albeit with the proviso that we may chat again on another subject, if I think you have anything intelligent to say.

In the meanwhile, have a nice day, week, month etc... Mark

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Jesus' Female Disciples. 1854 grangram 28-Apr-19 07:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 285 Susan Doris 28-Apr-19 10:43
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 250 grangram 28-Apr-19 15:27
The Women Behind Every Great Man. 240 Itatw70s 29-Apr-19 22:58
Re: The Women Behind Every Great Man. 213 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:40
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 260 PB Bytes 28-Apr-19 14:44
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 242 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 00:12
Further thoughts 228 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:09
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 226 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 14:18
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 238 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:29
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 222 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 15:54
This, on Mary Magdalene 228 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 15:53
The Mauling of the Magdalene 239 eyeofhorus33 01-May-19 18:34
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 219 PB Bytes 02-May-19 18:40
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 245 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 20:26
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 230 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:14
Amending the Apostles Creed... 224 PB Bytes 05-May-19 05:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 219 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 14:57
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 209 PB Bytes 05-May-19 15:17
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 208 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 17:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 200 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 233 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 18:14
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 211 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:26
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 200 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 19:10
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 227 PB Bytes 05-May-19 21:54
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 199 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:13
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 217 Itatw70s 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 226 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:29
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 216 Itatw70s 05-May-19 23:56
Virgin birth? 238 eyeofhorus33 06-May-19 19:07
Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 217 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 216 Susan Doris 07-May-19 05:25
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 224 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 211 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:21
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 204 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 206 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 208 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:32
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 220 drrayeye 07-May-19 07:03
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 226 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:39
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 218 drrayeye 07-May-19 21:27
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 217 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 16:21
The formation of dogma in the Christian church 220 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:22
Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 224 PB Bytes 09-May-19 17:17
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 228 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:48
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 209 PB Bytes 09-May-19 18:07
The Luminous Vision? 213 grangram 10-May-19 05:27
Re: The Luminous Vision? 217 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:46
Re: The Luminous Vision? 244 PB Bytes 13-May-19 21:45
Re: The Luminous Vision? 210 grangram 22-May-19 06:11
IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 239 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:48
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 233 PB Bytes 07-May-19 20:14
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 240 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 21:10
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 218 PB Bytes 07-May-19 21:42
The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 213 Itatw70s 07-May-19 22:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 214 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:54
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 230 Itatw70s 07-May-19 23:47
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 217 PB Bytes 08-May-19 00:30
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 201 Itatw70s 08-May-19 11:52
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 209 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 210 Itatw70s 08-May-19 15:16
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 208 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:12
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 211 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:51
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 223 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:26
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 210 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:53
The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 242 grangram 08-May-19 08:47
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 217 Susan Doris 08-May-19 11:43
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 220 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:21
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 214 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:33
No 209 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:37
Re: No 212 Itatw70s 08-May-19 22:20
Re: No 203 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:41
Re: No 216 Itatw70s 09-May-19 11:33
Re: No 210 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:32
Re: No 225 drrayeye 09-May-19 06:30
Re: No 217 Susan Doris 09-May-19 12:35
Re: No 201 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:17
Re: No 201 Susan Doris 09-May-19 15:30
Re: No 204 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:43
Re: Nowhere near the final exegesis of the mind. 219 Itatw70s 09-May-19 23:06
Going around in circles 217 drrayeye 09-May-19 16:00
Re: Going around in circles 207 Itatw70s 09-May-19 16:24
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 213 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:15
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 224 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:29
As above, so below.... 298 PB Bytes 08-May-19 20:56
thanks 200 grangram 09-May-19 08:14
Re: thanks 206 PB Bytes 09-May-19 14:02
yeah 207 grangram 09-May-19 15:49
Catholic-universal? 201 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:07
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 220 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:47
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 209 Susan Doris 08-May-19 07:32
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 201 Susan Doris 08-May-19 05:39
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 216 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 22:04
Problem is 203 drrayeye 09-May-19 07:55
"Bible worthless as history" 213 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 10:50
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 202 drrayeye 09-May-19 13:18
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 212 Susan Doris 09-May-19 14:09
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 192 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:23
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 194 Susan Doris 09-May-19 16:05
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 197 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:53
a little strong 208 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:00
Jesus' Female Disciples. 194 grangram 10-May-19 05:14
Here we go again... 206 PB Bytes 09-May-19 16:31
Re: Here we go again... 206 Susan Doris 09-May-19 17:12
First, 205 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:26
Re: First, 206 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:39
Academic thinking 214 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:14
Re: Academic thinking 201 PB Bytes 09-May-19 19:12
Tolstoy thinking 208 PB Bytes 12-May-19 13:12
David Rohl Lectures 216 grangram 15-May-19 12:52
Rohl's Revised Chronology 218 eyeofhorus33 18-May-19 17:42
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 198 grangram 19-May-19 04:43
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 204 eyeofhorus33 19-May-19 14:36
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 208 grangram 21-May-19 07:26
Thank you 225 eyeofhorus33 21-May-19 21:02
Re: Thank you 203 PB Bytes 22-May-19 02:02
Indeed 213 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 17:19
Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 200 PB Bytes 22-May-19 18:21
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 206 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 18:53
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 187 PB Bytes 22-May-19 19:12
Speechless (with an edited to add comment) 231 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 19:19
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 208 PB Bytes 22-May-19 20:10
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 233 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 20:33
Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 215 grangram 23-May-19 10:02
Re: Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 200 PB Bytes 23-May-19 14:27
Jason Colavito 198 drrayeye 23-May-19 17:59
Re: Jason Calovito 187 PB Bytes 23-May-19 18:09
Re: Jason Colavito 194 drrayeye 23-May-19 23:58
Can't even spell his name correctly (n/t) 217 eyeofhorus33 24-May-19 14:00
corrected 190 drrayeye 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 198 PB Bytes 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 197 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:18
Re: Jason Colavito part Four - on Hancock re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 215 PB Bytes 24-May-19 22:46
It's Jason's debunkatron POV 203 drrayeye 25-May-19 18:53
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 194 PB Bytes 25-May-19 19:26
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 196 PB Bytes 26-May-19 00:57
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 192 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:47
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 191 PB Bytes 26-May-19 15:49
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 197 drrayeye 26-May-19 10:56
One's path... 192 PB Bytes 26-May-19 16:52
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 213 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:33
As long as we suppose 324 drrayeye 26-May-19 21:47
Re: Jason Colavito part Two - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 191 PB Bytes 24-May-19 16:43
You had me at hello 184 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:57
Re: Jason Colavito part Three - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 191 PB Bytes 24-May-19 17:41
Links 212 eyeofhorus33 23-May-19 17:01
Egyptian Genesis 207 grangram 22-May-19 06:49
Bayesian carbon 14 dating video--comments 194 drrayeye 22-May-19 21:54
Patterns of evidence 204 drrayeye 20-May-19 13:48
Not yet Ray 230 eyeofhorus33 20-May-19 19:52
Re: Here we go again... 225 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 21:19
Re: Here we go again... 229 PB Bytes 09-May-19 22:48
Re: Here we go again... 215 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:50
Re: Here we go again... 199 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:56
You are mistaken.. 212 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 08:46
Re: You are mistaken.. 218 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:14
Re: You are mistaken.. 210 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 16:50
Re: You are mistaken.. 207 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:53
Know thyself, 226 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 22:15
Affirming the Greater Reality 219 PB Bytes 10-May-19 23:03
Wrong again! 226 eyeofhorus33 11-May-19 05:37
Mea Culpa for Matt 212 PB Bytes 11-May-19 18:57
Re: Virgin birth? 202 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:27
Cosmic Consciousness 224 Itatw70s 06-May-19 23:05
Re: Cosmic Consciousness 192 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:38
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 210 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:36
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 196 PB Bytes 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 200 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 218 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:20
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 209 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 206 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:19
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 199 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 203 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:45
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 217 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:58
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 219 PB Bytes 06-May-19 01:03
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 223 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 02:38
Passive-aggressive noise. 205 PB Bytes 06-May-19 03:05
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 208 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 04:02
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 203 PB Bytes 06-May-19 04:33
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 206 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 05:18
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 203 Itatw70s 06-May-19 11:30
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 202 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 13:28
The Age of Pisces.... 229 Itatw70s 07-May-19 11:52
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 223 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 207 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 16:42
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 224 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:02
Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 224 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:09
Fantastic! 209 drrayeye 29-Apr-19 17:15
Re: Fantastic! 207 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:24
Re: Fantastic! 215 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:22
Re: Fantastic! 209 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 03:51
Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 214 grangram 30-Apr-19 06:38
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 226 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:15
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 201 grangram 01-May-19 16:06
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 214 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:51
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 215 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:39
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 231 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 08:22
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 214 PB Bytes 02-May-19 19:25
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 211 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 17:18
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 211 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:22
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 211 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:26
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 210 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 11:46
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 221 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 13:35
The Mother Goddess.... 227 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 13:51
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 254 grangram 30-Apr-19 17:10
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 268 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 291 Enigcom 01-May-19 16:14
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 286 Itatw70s 01-May-19 23:22


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