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Hi Matt. Great tlaking point

On balance of probability, it is much, much more likely that Jesus was fathered by a biological man than by a Divine creator.

pb - agreed, 'on the balance of probability.'

Virgin birth is a feature common to a wide range of religious traditions practiced by ancient cultures which flourished for over a thousand years before this one. On balance of probability, it is much, much more likely that Jesus was fathered by a biological man than by a Divine creator.

pb - that depends on how one views the feasibilituy of virgin birth - see below - these other traditions,and the tradition of the traditional Jesus narrative.

Can you, or would you, dispute or deny that other historical figures such as the Babylonian god Ea whose son Marduk was born to Damkina is anything less than an account of an historical, factual event? Can you prove otherwise?

pb - I would neither confirm or deny it at this point, Matt.

How about Zoroaster whose mother Dughdova conceived him by a shaft of light?

pb - same as above

What of the ancient Egyptian pharaoh Hatshepsut, whose "divine birth" colonnade at Deir-el-Bahri depicts unequivocally the story which in later times was recorded as the nativity story by Luke and Matthew?

pb - same as above, although I would like to hear in greater detail how strong this alleged match is.

So many to choose from ... all they all true? All made up? Or just the ones you don't want to believe in?

One to ponder.

pb - My fuller response doesn't require an either-or proposition. I do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but that take has much to do with my own experience within Christianity. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I seem myself as Christian, most fundamentally, because I believe that God sanctified my relationship with Christianity, on an occasion that I mentioned in the recent Gospel of Thomas thread. As I wrote there, throughout that experience I had no doubt that I was having a sustained "Communion" experience, and I have never doubted it since. As such, the proof rose well beyond anything to do with balancing probabilities. Moreover Matt, I see this episode fitting in a much wider historical narrative. Simply put, over the last 2,000 years, many people have had intense mystical experiences whereby a very great force has linked the episode to traditional Christianity. That played out in my sense through the fact that my own episode occurred on Easter Sunday.

So, to your questions raised about other figures associated with virgin birth, the far better question to me is how well this claim was followed up. Did these other figures leave a Legacy that continued after their death? I really don't know, and just so we are clear, you will not find me as one who will insist that all of these others lineages must be wrong. I simply don't know enough about them.

But here's my final point, to your general point. As I see it, you are proposing a counter argument that is passe. A century ago, or perhaps during the 60s - when we were questioning everything - this anti-Virgin birth argument may have been at its persuasive peak: Why should anybody believe in a frigging virgin birth!? That's ridiculous, unscientific and - on the balance of probabilities, especially when secular explanations are deemed to be the only 'rational' (logical) ones, it is silly to expect modern thinkers to accept virgin birth on faith.

Now, even you must acknowledge that I could perform 72 virgin births quite easily. To this we all MUST agree. It is UNscientific and totally anachronistic to THINK otherwise. The narrative flipped on July 15, 1978, when the first invitro baby was born. Now there are more invitro babies born than there are people living in greater London - [www.cnn.com]

Further inferences are to be drawn from this fact. Of course, if there is a God, then virgin births are possible because God can do everything. This line of thought has been mentioned from time immemorial. However, even if we are to presume that there is no God, if only for the sake of argument, and presume that the entire cosmos is due to the Big Accident or random event, then the same (chance based) logic resoundingly infers that other intelligent species would have been able to do this procedure at the time of Christ, and at all of the other earlier eras you mention:

As you will know, Matt, the universe is about 14 billion years old. When the age of the universe is transposed over the yearly calendar, also Carl Sagan's Cosmic Calendar, and as everyone reading this post MUST also agree, it follows that we came along with about a minute left in the cosmic year on December 31st. And so, if one is to presume that our existence is based purely on chance, then the laws of chance prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that other intelligent species will have acquired this technology elsewhere and long before we did. There is no room for skepticism or equivocation here at all: With all of the gazillion stars out there, let alone planets, it is ludicrous, according to the laws of chance, to presume that it is 'rational' to think that we are the ONLY intelligent species out there. Any other species that 'accidentally' came along on Sagan's December 30 would already be 40 MILLION years older than us. 40 million years per Cosmic Day.

Next, when we place 1600AD as the starting point of our scientific age, it turns out that we are only 400 years into Earth-humanity's age of science. Yet in this VERY short time, we've already figured out to perform virgin births ourselves. Again, I say that we MUST all agree on this because that is the truth. Others might like to sweep that fact under the rug, because that's what some do. But there is no wiggle room. Whether they like it or not "virgin" births are happening all around us. 20k in the UK last year alone.

As outrageous as the whole idea of virgin birth might have seemed, in some circles, mere decades ago, now the narrative has flipped. And in the grand scheme of things, when we consider our tech potential, if we survive, and are able to acquire more tech in thousands and tens of thousands of years, virgin birth - a concept declared ludicrous by many 'rational' thinkers, mere decades ago - turns out to be relatively primitive technology.

Finally then, at this point, so very early into our own tech trajectory, we've already learned enough to recognize that we have No IDEA how far we will advance, if we survive as a species. As such, it would be pure arrogance, and ignorance, imo, to insist, in then name of being 'rational' - which is generally a measure of 'how we think nowadays' to begin with - that these earlier cultures you mention could NOT have been visited by an ET species that performed virgin births of their own.

Mark

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Jesus' Female Disciples. 1823 grangram 28-Apr-19 07:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 263 Susan Doris 28-Apr-19 10:43
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 231 grangram 28-Apr-19 15:27
The Women Behind Every Great Man. 221 Itatw70s 29-Apr-19 22:58
Re: The Women Behind Every Great Man. 192 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:40
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 241 PB Bytes 28-Apr-19 14:44
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 222 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 00:12
Further thoughts 207 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:09
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 205 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 14:18
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 216 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:29
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 201 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 15:54
This, on Mary Magdalene 209 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 15:53
The Mauling of the Magdalene 216 eyeofhorus33 01-May-19 18:34
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 198 PB Bytes 02-May-19 18:40
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 221 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 20:26
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 211 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:14
Amending the Apostles Creed... 202 PB Bytes 05-May-19 05:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 200 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 14:57
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 190 PB Bytes 05-May-19 15:17
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 190 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 17:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 178 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 207 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 18:14
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 192 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:26
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 180 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 19:10
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 205 PB Bytes 05-May-19 21:54
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 175 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:13
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 196 Itatw70s 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 205 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:29
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 197 Itatw70s 05-May-19 23:56
Virgin birth? 213 eyeofhorus33 06-May-19 19:07
Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 197 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 196 Susan Doris 07-May-19 05:25
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 201 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 191 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:21
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 185 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 183 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 185 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:32
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 198 drrayeye 07-May-19 07:03
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 202 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:39
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 198 drrayeye 07-May-19 21:27
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 193 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 16:21
The formation of dogma in the Christian church 198 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:22
Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 206 PB Bytes 09-May-19 17:17
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 202 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:48
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 187 PB Bytes 09-May-19 18:07
The Luminous Vision? 193 grangram 10-May-19 05:27
Re: The Luminous Vision? 196 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:46
Re: The Luminous Vision? 220 PB Bytes 13-May-19 21:45
Re: The Luminous Vision? 188 grangram 22-May-19 06:11
IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 216 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:48
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 213 PB Bytes 07-May-19 20:14
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 218 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 21:10
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 196 PB Bytes 07-May-19 21:42
The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 193 Itatw70s 07-May-19 22:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 195 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:54
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 210 Itatw70s 07-May-19 23:47
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 199 PB Bytes 08-May-19 00:30
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 182 Itatw70s 08-May-19 11:52
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 188 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 185 Itatw70s 08-May-19 15:16
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 187 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:12
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 189 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:51
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 202 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:26
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 188 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:53
The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 222 grangram 08-May-19 08:47
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 194 Susan Doris 08-May-19 11:43
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 197 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:21
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 196 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:33
No 188 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:37
Re: No 193 Itatw70s 08-May-19 22:20
Re: No 181 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:41
Re: No 192 Itatw70s 09-May-19 11:33
Re: No 188 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:32
Re: No 203 drrayeye 09-May-19 06:30
Re: No 197 Susan Doris 09-May-19 12:35
Re: No 182 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:17
Re: No 183 Susan Doris 09-May-19 15:30
Re: No 183 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:43
Re: Nowhere near the final exegesis of the mind. 200 Itatw70s 09-May-19 23:06
Going around in circles 192 drrayeye 09-May-19 16:00
Re: Going around in circles 183 Itatw70s 09-May-19 16:24
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 191 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:15
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 204 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:29
As above, so below.... 277 PB Bytes 08-May-19 20:56
thanks 182 grangram 09-May-19 08:14
Re: thanks 188 PB Bytes 09-May-19 14:02
yeah 186 grangram 09-May-19 15:49
Catholic-universal? 179 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:07
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 199 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:47
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 187 Susan Doris 08-May-19 07:32
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 181 Susan Doris 08-May-19 05:39
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 192 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 22:04
Problem is 183 drrayeye 09-May-19 07:55
"Bible worthless as history" 193 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 10:50
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 184 drrayeye 09-May-19 13:18
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 190 Susan Doris 09-May-19 14:09
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 173 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:23
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 174 Susan Doris 09-May-19 16:05
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 176 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:53
a little strong 190 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:00
Jesus' Female Disciples. 177 grangram 10-May-19 05:14
Here we go again... 187 PB Bytes 09-May-19 16:31
Re: Here we go again... 183 Susan Doris 09-May-19 17:12
First, 184 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:26
Re: First, 182 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:39
Academic thinking 193 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:14
Re: Academic thinking 180 PB Bytes 09-May-19 19:12
Tolstoy thinking 187 PB Bytes 12-May-19 13:12
David Rohl Lectures 196 grangram 15-May-19 12:52
Rohl's Revised Chronology 196 eyeofhorus33 18-May-19 17:42
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 177 grangram 19-May-19 04:43
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 182 eyeofhorus33 19-May-19 14:36
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 189 grangram 21-May-19 07:26
Thank you 203 eyeofhorus33 21-May-19 21:02
Re: Thank you 179 PB Bytes 22-May-19 02:02
Indeed 191 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 17:19
Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 181 PB Bytes 22-May-19 18:21
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 182 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 18:53
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 168 PB Bytes 22-May-19 19:12
Speechless (with an edited to add comment) 207 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 19:19
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 188 PB Bytes 22-May-19 20:10
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 201 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 20:33
Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 195 grangram 23-May-19 10:02
Re: Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 177 PB Bytes 23-May-19 14:27
Jason Colavito 177 drrayeye 23-May-19 17:59
Re: Jason Calovito 169 PB Bytes 23-May-19 18:09
Re: Jason Colavito 174 drrayeye 23-May-19 23:58
Can't even spell his name correctly (n/t) 193 eyeofhorus33 24-May-19 14:00
corrected 169 drrayeye 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 174 PB Bytes 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 172 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:18
Re: Jason Colavito part Four - on Hancock re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 195 PB Bytes 24-May-19 22:46
It's Jason's debunkatron POV 184 drrayeye 25-May-19 18:53
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 173 PB Bytes 25-May-19 19:26
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 174 PB Bytes 26-May-19 00:57
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 171 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:47
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 168 PB Bytes 26-May-19 15:49
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 176 drrayeye 26-May-19 10:56
One's path... 170 PB Bytes 26-May-19 16:52
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 190 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:33
As long as we suppose 301 drrayeye 26-May-19 21:47
Re: Jason Colavito part Two - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 171 PB Bytes 24-May-19 16:43
You had me at hello 165 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:57
Re: Jason Colavito part Three - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 173 PB Bytes 24-May-19 17:41
Links 188 eyeofhorus33 23-May-19 17:01
Egyptian Genesis 186 grangram 22-May-19 06:49
Bayesian carbon 14 dating video--comments 174 drrayeye 22-May-19 21:54
Patterns of evidence 184 drrayeye 20-May-19 13:48
Not yet Ray 207 eyeofhorus33 20-May-19 19:52
Re: Here we go again... 203 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 21:19
Re: Here we go again... 207 PB Bytes 09-May-19 22:48
Re: Here we go again... 193 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:50
Re: Here we go again... 177 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:56
You are mistaken.. 191 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 08:46
Re: You are mistaken.. 198 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:14
Re: You are mistaken.. 184 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 16:50
Re: You are mistaken.. 183 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:53
Know thyself, 204 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 22:15
Affirming the Greater Reality 197 PB Bytes 10-May-19 23:03
Wrong again! 203 eyeofhorus33 11-May-19 05:37
Mea Culpa for Matt 191 PB Bytes 11-May-19 18:57
Re: Virgin birth? 181 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:27
Cosmic Consciousness 205 Itatw70s 06-May-19 23:05
Re: Cosmic Consciousness 173 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:38
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 191 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:36
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 174 PB Bytes 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 179 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 197 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:20
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 185 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 185 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:19
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 177 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 180 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:45
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 194 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:58
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 196 PB Bytes 06-May-19 01:03
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 203 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 02:38
Passive-aggressive noise. 184 PB Bytes 06-May-19 03:05
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 187 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 04:02
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 183 PB Bytes 06-May-19 04:33
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 184 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 05:18
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 181 Itatw70s 06-May-19 11:30
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 180 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 13:28
The Age of Pisces.... 209 Itatw70s 07-May-19 11:52
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 202 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 186 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 16:42
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 201 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:02
Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 200 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:09
Fantastic! 190 drrayeye 29-Apr-19 17:15
Re: Fantastic! 187 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:24
Re: Fantastic! 195 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:22
Re: Fantastic! 186 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 03:51
Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 194 grangram 30-Apr-19 06:38
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 188 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:15
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 181 grangram 01-May-19 16:06
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 193 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:51
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 193 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:39
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 208 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 08:22
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 192 PB Bytes 02-May-19 19:25
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 190 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 17:18
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 190 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:22
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 189 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:26
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 190 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 11:46
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 198 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 13:35
The Mother Goddess.... 206 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 13:51
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 231 grangram 30-Apr-19 17:10
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 250 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 269 Enigcom 01-May-19 16:14
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 268 Itatw70s 01-May-19 23:22


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