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Hi Matt. Great tlaking point

On balance of probability, it is much, much more likely that Jesus was fathered by a biological man than by a Divine creator.

pb - agreed, 'on the balance of probability.'

Virgin birth is a feature common to a wide range of religious traditions practiced by ancient cultures which flourished for over a thousand years before this one. On balance of probability, it is much, much more likely that Jesus was fathered by a biological man than by a Divine creator.

pb - that depends on how one views the feasibilituy of virgin birth - see below - these other traditions,and the tradition of the traditional Jesus narrative.

Can you, or would you, dispute or deny that other historical figures such as the Babylonian god Ea whose son Marduk was born to Damkina is anything less than an account of an historical, factual event? Can you prove otherwise?

pb - I would neither confirm or deny it at this point, Matt.

How about Zoroaster whose mother Dughdova conceived him by a shaft of light?

pb - same as above

What of the ancient Egyptian pharaoh Hatshepsut, whose "divine birth" colonnade at Deir-el-Bahri depicts unequivocally the story which in later times was recorded as the nativity story by Luke and Matthew?

pb - same as above, although I would like to hear in greater detail how strong this alleged match is.

So many to choose from ... all they all true? All made up? Or just the ones you don't want to believe in?

One to ponder.

pb - My fuller response doesn't require an either-or proposition. I do believe in the virgin birth of Jesus, but that take has much to do with my own experience within Christianity. I've said it before, I'll say it again. I seem myself as Christian, most fundamentally, because I believe that God sanctified my relationship with Christianity, on an occasion that I mentioned in the recent Gospel of Thomas thread. As I wrote there, throughout that experience I had no doubt that I was having a sustained "Communion" experience, and I have never doubted it since. As such, the proof rose well beyond anything to do with balancing probabilities. Moreover Matt, I see this episode fitting in a much wider historical narrative. Simply put, over the last 2,000 years, many people have had intense mystical experiences whereby a very great force has linked the episode to traditional Christianity. That played out in my sense through the fact that my own episode occurred on Easter Sunday.

So, to your questions raised about other figures associated with virgin birth, the far better question to me is how well this claim was followed up. Did these other figures leave a Legacy that continued after their death? I really don't know, and just so we are clear, you will not find me as one who will insist that all of these others lineages must be wrong. I simply don't know enough about them.

But here's my final point, to your general point. As I see it, you are proposing a counter argument that is passe. A century ago, or perhaps during the 60s - when we were questioning everything - this anti-Virgin birth argument may have been at its persuasive peak: Why should anybody believe in a frigging virgin birth!? That's ridiculous, unscientific and - on the balance of probabilities, especially when secular explanations are deemed to be the only 'rational' (logical) ones, it is silly to expect modern thinkers to accept virgin birth on faith.

Now, even you must acknowledge that I could perform 72 virgin births quite easily. To this we all MUST agree. It is UNscientific and totally anachronistic to THINK otherwise. The narrative flipped on July 15, 1978, when the first invitro baby was born. Now there are more invitro babies born than there are people living in greater London - [www.cnn.com]

Further inferences are to be drawn from this fact. Of course, if there is a God, then virgin births are possible because God can do everything. This line of thought has been mentioned from time immemorial. However, even if we are to presume that there is no God, if only for the sake of argument, and presume that the entire cosmos is due to the Big Accident or random event, then the same (chance based) logic resoundingly infers that other intelligent species would have been able to do this procedure at the time of Christ, and at all of the other earlier eras you mention:

As you will know, Matt, the universe is about 14 billion years old. When the age of the universe is transposed over the yearly calendar, also Carl Sagan's Cosmic Calendar, and as everyone reading this post MUST also agree, it follows that we came along with about a minute left in the cosmic year on December 31st. And so, if one is to presume that our existence is based purely on chance, then the laws of chance prove, beyond a reasonable doubt, that other intelligent species will have acquired this technology elsewhere and long before we did. There is no room for skepticism or equivocation here at all: With all of the gazillion stars out there, let alone planets, it is ludicrous, according to the laws of chance, to presume that it is 'rational' to think that we are the ONLY intelligent species out there. Any other species that 'accidentally' came along on Sagan's December 30 would already be 40 MILLION years older than us. 40 million years per Cosmic Day.

Next, when we place 1600AD as the starting point of our scientific age, it turns out that we are only 400 years into Earth-humanity's age of science. Yet in this VERY short time, we've already figured out to perform virgin births ourselves. Again, I say that we MUST all agree on this because that is the truth. Others might like to sweep that fact under the rug, because that's what some do. But there is no wiggle room. Whether they like it or not "virgin" births are happening all around us. 20k in the UK last year alone.

As outrageous as the whole idea of virgin birth might have seemed, in some circles, mere decades ago, now the narrative has flipped. And in the grand scheme of things, when we consider our tech potential, if we survive, and are able to acquire more tech in thousands and tens of thousands of years, virgin birth - a concept declared ludicrous by many 'rational' thinkers, mere decades ago - turns out to be relatively primitive technology.

Finally then, at this point, so very early into our own tech trajectory, we've already learned enough to recognize that we have No IDEA how far we will advance, if we survive as a species. As such, it would be pure arrogance, and ignorance, imo, to insist, in then name of being 'rational' - which is generally a measure of 'how we think nowadays' to begin with - that these earlier cultures you mention could NOT have been visited by an ET species that performed virgin births of their own.

Mark

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Jesus' Female Disciples. 1853 grangram 28-Apr-19 07:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 284 Susan Doris 28-Apr-19 10:43
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 249 grangram 28-Apr-19 15:27
The Women Behind Every Great Man. 239 Itatw70s 29-Apr-19 22:58
Re: The Women Behind Every Great Man. 213 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:40
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 259 PB Bytes 28-Apr-19 14:44
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 241 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 00:12
Further thoughts 227 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:09
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 226 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 14:18
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 238 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 14:29
Re: Further thoughts Female Saints 221 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 15:54
This, on Mary Magdalene 227 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 15:53
The Mauling of the Magdalene 239 eyeofhorus33 01-May-19 18:34
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 219 PB Bytes 02-May-19 18:40
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 244 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 20:26
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene EDITED 229 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:14
Amending the Apostles Creed... 224 PB Bytes 05-May-19 05:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 219 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 14:57
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 209 PB Bytes 05-May-19 15:17
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 207 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 17:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 199 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 232 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 18:14
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 211 PB Bytes 05-May-19 18:26
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 200 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 19:10
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 227 PB Bytes 05-May-19 21:54
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 197 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:13
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 216 Itatw70s 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 225 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:29
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 215 Itatw70s 05-May-19 23:56
Virgin birth? 237 eyeofhorus33 06-May-19 19:07
Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 216 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 215 Susan Doris 07-May-19 05:25
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 223 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 211 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:21
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 203 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:24
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 206 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:18
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 207 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:32
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 218 drrayeye 07-May-19 07:03
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 225 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:39
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 217 drrayeye 07-May-19 21:27
Re: Regarding the MYTH of the 'Virgin birth myth' 216 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 16:21
The formation of dogma in the Christian church 219 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:22
Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 224 PB Bytes 09-May-19 17:17
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 227 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:48
Re: Micah: The formation of dogma in the Christian church 208 PB Bytes 09-May-19 18:07
The Luminous Vision? 212 grangram 10-May-19 05:27
Re: The Luminous Vision? 216 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:46
Re: The Luminous Vision? 243 PB Bytes 13-May-19 21:45
Re: The Luminous Vision? 209 grangram 22-May-19 06:11
IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 237 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 19:48
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 232 PB Bytes 07-May-19 20:14
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 240 eyeofhorus33 07-May-19 21:10
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 217 PB Bytes 07-May-19 21:42
The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 212 Itatw70s 07-May-19 22:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 213 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:54
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 230 Itatw70s 07-May-19 23:47
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 217 PB Bytes 08-May-19 00:30
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 200 Itatw70s 08-May-19 11:52
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 208 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:27
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 210 Itatw70s 08-May-19 15:16
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 208 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:12
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 210 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:51
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 222 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:26
Re: The birth of Christianity. Based upon mythology and neccessity in the Roman Empire. 209 Itatw70s 08-May-19 18:53
The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 241 grangram 08-May-19 08:47
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 217 Susan Doris 08-May-19 11:43
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 219 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:21
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 213 Susan Doris 08-May-19 15:33
No 209 drrayeye 08-May-19 18:37
Re: No 211 Itatw70s 08-May-19 22:20
Re: No 202 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:41
Re: No 215 Itatw70s 09-May-19 11:33
Re: No 208 Susan Doris 09-May-19 05:32
Re: No 224 drrayeye 09-May-19 06:30
Re: No 216 Susan Doris 09-May-19 12:35
Re: No 200 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:17
Re: No 201 Susan Doris 09-May-19 15:30
Re: No 203 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:43
Re: Nowhere near the final exegesis of the mind. 218 Itatw70s 09-May-19 23:06
Going around in circles 216 drrayeye 09-May-19 16:00
Re: Going around in circles 206 Itatw70s 09-May-19 16:24
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 212 PB Bytes 10-May-19 00:15
Re: The spirit is not born of woman. But it is the life force in both men and women? 224 PB Bytes 08-May-19 14:29
As above, so below.... 298 PB Bytes 08-May-19 20:56
thanks 200 grangram 09-May-19 08:14
Re: thanks 206 PB Bytes 09-May-19 14:02
yeah 206 grangram 09-May-19 15:49
Catholic-universal? 200 PB Bytes 13-May-19 20:07
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 219 PB Bytes 07-May-19 22:47
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 208 Susan Doris 08-May-19 07:32
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 200 Susan Doris 08-May-19 05:39
Re: IVF is not divinely created biblical 'virgin birth' 215 eyeofhorus33 08-May-19 22:04
Problem is 201 drrayeye 09-May-19 07:55
"Bible worthless as history" 213 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 10:50
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 202 drrayeye 09-May-19 13:18
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 211 Susan Doris 09-May-19 14:09
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 191 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 14:23
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 193 Susan Doris 09-May-19 16:05
Re: "Bible worthless as history" 195 Eddie Larry 09-May-19 20:53
a little strong 208 drrayeye 09-May-19 17:00
Jesus' Female Disciples. 194 grangram 10-May-19 05:14
Here we go again... 206 PB Bytes 09-May-19 16:31
Re: Here we go again... 205 Susan Doris 09-May-19 17:12
First, 204 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:26
Re: First, 205 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:39
Academic thinking 213 drrayeye 09-May-19 18:14
Re: Academic thinking 200 PB Bytes 09-May-19 19:12
Tolstoy thinking 207 PB Bytes 12-May-19 13:12
David Rohl Lectures 215 grangram 15-May-19 12:52
Rohl's Revised Chronology 217 eyeofhorus33 18-May-19 17:42
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 197 grangram 19-May-19 04:43
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 203 eyeofhorus33 19-May-19 14:36
Re: Rohl's Revised Chronology 208 grangram 21-May-19 07:26
Thank you 225 eyeofhorus33 21-May-19 21:02
Re: Thank you 201 PB Bytes 22-May-19 02:02
Indeed 212 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 17:19
Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 200 PB Bytes 22-May-19 18:21
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 205 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 18:53
Re: Psuedo intellectual dishonesty 186 PB Bytes 22-May-19 19:12
Speechless (with an edited to add comment) 231 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 19:19
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 207 PB Bytes 22-May-19 20:10
Re: Speechless (with an edited to add comment--ooh, I'm sooo scared) 232 eyeofhorus33 22-May-19 20:33
Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 214 grangram 23-May-19 10:02
Re: Thornborough, Giza & Orion Shining Above-Below 199 PB Bytes 23-May-19 14:27
Jason Colavito 197 drrayeye 23-May-19 17:59
Re: Jason Calovito 186 PB Bytes 23-May-19 18:09
Re: Jason Colavito 193 drrayeye 23-May-19 23:58
Can't even spell his name correctly (n/t) 217 eyeofhorus33 24-May-19 14:00
corrected 189 drrayeye 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 197 PB Bytes 24-May-19 15:37
Re: Jason Colavito part One 195 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:18
Re: Jason Colavito part Four - on Hancock re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 215 PB Bytes 24-May-19 22:46
It's Jason's debunkatron POV 203 drrayeye 25-May-19 18:53
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 194 PB Bytes 25-May-19 19:26
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 195 PB Bytes 26-May-19 00:57
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 191 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:47
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 190 PB Bytes 26-May-19 15:49
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 196 drrayeye 26-May-19 10:56
One's path... 191 PB Bytes 26-May-19 16:52
Re: It's Jason's debunkatron POV 211 Susan Doris 26-May-19 07:33
As long as we suppose 323 drrayeye 26-May-19 21:47
Re: Jason Colavito part Two - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 191 PB Bytes 24-May-19 16:43
You had me at hello 184 drrayeye 24-May-19 16:57
Re: Jason Colavito part Three - on Shermer re Rogan and Magicians of the Gods 190 PB Bytes 24-May-19 17:41
Links 211 eyeofhorus33 23-May-19 17:01
Egyptian Genesis 206 grangram 22-May-19 06:49
Bayesian carbon 14 dating video--comments 193 drrayeye 22-May-19 21:54
Patterns of evidence 204 drrayeye 20-May-19 13:48
Not yet Ray 230 eyeofhorus33 20-May-19 19:52
Re: Here we go again... 224 eyeofhorus33 09-May-19 21:19
Re: Here we go again... 228 PB Bytes 09-May-19 22:48
Re: Here we go again... 214 Susan Doris 10-May-19 05:50
Re: Here we go again... 198 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:56
You are mistaken.. 211 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 08:46
Re: You are mistaken.. 217 PB Bytes 10-May-19 14:14
Re: You are mistaken.. 207 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 16:50
Re: You are mistaken.. 206 PB Bytes 10-May-19 16:53
Know thyself, 226 eyeofhorus33 10-May-19 22:15
Affirming the Greater Reality 219 PB Bytes 10-May-19 23:03
Wrong again! 226 eyeofhorus33 11-May-19 05:37
Mea Culpa for Matt 211 PB Bytes 11-May-19 18:57
Re: Virgin birth? 202 Eddie Larry 08-May-19 17:27
Cosmic Consciousness 224 Itatw70s 06-May-19 23:05
Re: Cosmic Consciousness 191 PB Bytes 07-May-19 02:38
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 210 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:36
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 195 PB Bytes 05-May-19 22:50
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 199 Eddie Larry 05-May-19 22:53
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 217 PB Bytes 05-May-19 23:20
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 208 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:02
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 205 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:19
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 198 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:31
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 201 PB Bytes 06-May-19 00:45
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 216 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 00:58
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 219 PB Bytes 06-May-19 01:03
Re: Amending the Apostles Creed... 223 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 02:38
Passive-aggressive noise. 205 PB Bytes 06-May-19 03:05
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 208 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 04:02
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 202 PB Bytes 06-May-19 04:33
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 205 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 05:18
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 202 Itatw70s 06-May-19 11:30
Re: Passive-aggressive noise. 201 Eddie Larry 06-May-19 13:28
The Age of Pisces.... 228 Itatw70s 07-May-19 11:52
Re: The Mauling of the Magdalene 223 drrayeye 03-May-19 17:27
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 207 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 16:42
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 223 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:02
Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 223 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:09
Fantastic! 208 drrayeye 29-Apr-19 17:15
Re: Fantastic! 207 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:24
Re: Fantastic! 215 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:22
Re: Fantastic! 208 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 03:51
Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 213 grangram 30-Apr-19 06:38
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 225 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:15
Re: Helen Bond and Joan Taylor (2018) St Pauls cathedral 200 grangram 01-May-19 16:06
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 213 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 09:51
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 214 PB Bytes 30-Apr-19 15:39
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 231 eyeofhorus33 02-May-19 08:22
Re: Taking Action: Jesus' Female Disciples. 213 PB Bytes 02-May-19 19:25
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 210 Eddie Larry 29-Apr-19 17:18
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 210 PB Bytes 29-Apr-19 17:22
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 210 grangram 29-Apr-19 19:26
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 209 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 11:46
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 219 Susan Doris 30-Apr-19 13:35
The Mother Goddess.... 227 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 13:51
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 253 grangram 30-Apr-19 17:10
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 267 Itatw70s 30-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 290 Enigcom 01-May-19 16:14
Re: Jesus' Female Disciples. 285 Itatw70s 01-May-19 23:22


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