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Mark

To question the veracity of the 'content' of a work of oral rabbinic literature until its transcription centuries after an established literary canon is akin, in the opinion of Kabbalists at least, to questioning the veracity of the 'content' of the gnostic gospels.

Proponents of an established 'canon' always dismiss other works as apocrypha or, in this case, pseudepigrapha.

One interesting defence of the Zohar is summarised here:

Quote

Within Orthodox Judaism the traditional view that Shimon bar Yochai was the author is prevalent. R' Menachem Mendel Kasher in a 1958 article in the periodical Sinai argues against the claims of Gershom Scholem that the Zohar was written in the 13th Century by R' Moses de León.vHe writes:

* Many statements in the works of the Rishonim (medieval commentors who preceded de León) refer to Medrashim that we are not aware of. He writes that these are in fact references to the Zohar. This has also been pointed out by R' David Luria in his work "Kadmus Sefer Ha'Zohar".

* The Zohar's major opponent Elijah Delmedigo refers to the Zohar as having existed for "only" 300 years. Even he agrees that it was extant at the time of R' Moses de León.

* He cites a document from R' Yitchok M' Acco who was sent by the Ramban to investigate the Zohar. The document brings witnesses that attest to the existence of the manuscript.

* It is impossible to accept that R' Moshe de León managed to forge a work within the scope of the Zohar (1700 pages) within a period of six years as Scholem claims.

* A comparison between the Zohar and de León's other works show major stylistic differences. Although he made use of his manuscript of the Zohar, many ideas presented in his works contradict or ignore ideas mentioned in the Zohar. Luria also points this out.

* Many of the Midrashic works achieved their final redaction in the Geonic period. Some of the anachronistic terminologies of the Zohar may date from that time.

* Out of the thousands of words used in the Zohar, Scholem finds two anachronistic terms and nine cases of ungrammatical usage of words. This proves that the majority of the Zohar was written within the accepted time frame and only a small amount was added later (in the Geonic period as mentioned).

* Some hard to understand terms may be attributed to acronyms or codes. He finds corollaries to such a practice in other ancient manuscripts.

* The "borrowings" from medieval commentaries may be explained in a simple manner. It is not unheard of that a note written on the side of a text should on later copying be added to the main part of the text. The Talmud itself has Geonic additions from such a cause. Certainly, this would apply to the Zohar to which there did not exist other manuscripts to compare it with.

* He cites an ancient manuscript that refers to a book Sod Gadol that seems to in fact be the Zohar.

Concerning the Zohar's lack of knowledge of the land of Israel, Scholem bases this on the many references to a city Kaputkia (Cappadocia) which he states was situated in Turkey, not in Israel. A city by this name located in Israel does appear, however, in Targum Onkelos, Targum Yonatan, Mishnah, Babylonian Talmud and several Midrashim.

Another theory as to the authorship of the Zohar is that it was transmitted like the Talmud before it was transcribed: as an oral tradition reapplied to changing conditions and eventually recorded.

The thing is: we have Thomas in India; there is a tomb of a man who bore the wounds of Roman crucifixion in Srinagar; we have a text whose author claimed are teachings purported to be at least contemporaneous with evangelical gospels writing about Brahminical practices in the East.

All very fascinating. What does it mean? I have no idea. What does it prove? Nothing at all.

Matt

Edited: to correct typos and a formatting error.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04-Apr-19 07:17 by eyeofhorus33.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 1920 PB Bytes 29-Mar-19 17:07
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 335 Eddie Larry 29-Mar-19 17:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 316 PB Bytes 29-Mar-19 22:12
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 304 Eddie Larry 29-Mar-19 22:54
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 337 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 05:23
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 309 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 17:01
Making progress 319 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 18:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 302 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 222 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:30
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 216 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:14
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 224 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:00
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 18:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 213 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 19:05
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:15
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 20:44
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:43
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:57
Manichaeism 225 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Manichaeism 220 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 18:10
Re: Manichaeism 217 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 20:16
Re: Manichaeism 201 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:45
Re: Manichaeism 206 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 16:05
Re: Manichaeism 208 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 16:58
Re: Manichaeism 208 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 17:22
Re: Manichaeism 211 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:31
Re: Manichaeism 199 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 18:26
Re: Manichaeism 201 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:19
Re: Manichaeism 201 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 20:36
Re: Manichaeism 202 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:42
Re: Manichaeism 226 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 22:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:25
Before we go any further 219 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:45
Re: Before we go any further 210 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:05
Re: Before we go any further 218 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 17:02
Re: Before we go any further 210 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 18:04
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 213 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 213 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:38
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 218 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:19
Thanks 208 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 18:54
Re: Thanks 211 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:04
Some alternatives 209 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 21:05
Re: Some alternatives 200 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Some alternatives 215 drrayeye 02-Apr-19 20:49
Re: Some alternatives 208 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:51
Re: Thanks 230 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 19:14
Re: Thanks 214 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:55
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 205 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:52
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:04
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:54
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 205 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:38
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 199 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 18:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 02:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 214 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 04:07
Thomas in India 223 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 04:31
Re: Thomas in India 212 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:11
Re: Thomas in India 206 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:13
Re: Thomas in India 208 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:20
Re: Thomas in India 219 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:32
Re: Thomas in India 207 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:40
Re: Thomas in India 204 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 19:06
Re: Thomas in India 213 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 20:42
Re: Thomas in India 209 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 21:23
Re: Thomas in India 212 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 06:35
Re: Thomas in India 205 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 15:41
Inspiration 204 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 18:13
Re: Inspiration 243 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 21:30
Re: Inspiration 208 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 11:53
Re: Inspiration 215 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 17:03
Re: Inspiration 201 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 17:20
Re: Inspiration 199 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 18:23
Re: Inspiration 208 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 18:21
Re: Inspiration 246 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 18:29
James the Just 229 grangram 05-Apr-19 08:25
I agree completely 208 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 16:50
Re: I agree completely 208 grangram 05-Apr-19 17:56
Re: I agree completely 212 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 23:00
Re: James the Just 210 PB Bytes 05-Apr-19 23:27
Socrates? of course. 218 grangram 06-Apr-19 06:50
Re: Inspiration 202 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 00:47
Re: Inspiration 216 drrayeye 06-Apr-19 03:07
Re: Inspiration 204 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 12:27
Re: Thomas in India 210 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 20:18
Re: Thomas in India 225 Eddie Larry 04-Apr-19 21:24
Re: Thomas in India 229 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 21:39
Re: Thomas in India 206 Eddie Larry 05-Apr-19 01:39
Re: Thomas in India 235 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 21:42
Re: Thomas in India 209 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 00:40
Re: Thomas in India 203 Eddie Larry 05-Apr-19 00:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 304 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 03:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 280 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 05:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 292 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 06:14
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 290 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 14:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 287 Eddie Larry 30-Mar-19 17:56
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 281 PB Bytes 31-Mar-19 23:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 224 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 212 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:41
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:50
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:18
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:02
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:27
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 193 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:57
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:55
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:01
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 190 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 202 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:32
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:32
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 199 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 18:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 205 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 19:35
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 192 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:41
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 192 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 19:45
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 20:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 20:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:01
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 205 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:44
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 299 Susan Doris 30-Mar-19 06:16
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 260 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 14:13
Youtube is very helpful 276 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 18:52
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 267 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:46
Some interesting comments 278 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 20:39
Re: Some interesting comments 306 Eddie Larry 30-Mar-19 22:45
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 405 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:29
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 245 PB Bytes 31-Mar-19 23:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 11:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 13:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 212 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 13:19
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 15:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 216 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 15:13
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 199 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:13
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 223 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 208 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:21
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:18
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:50
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:27
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 193 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 20:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 21:48
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 23:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 246 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:09
Our differences are our similarities.... 220 Itatw70s 02-Apr-19 18:17
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 202 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 19:44
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 208 Itatw70s 02-Apr-19 23:39
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 196 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 15:02
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 199 Itatw70s 03-Apr-19 16:34
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 201 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:03
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 200 Itatw70s 04-Apr-19 18:21
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 199 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 00:53
IMO 226 drrayeye 02-Apr-19 23:12
About that short trip I had mentioned... 224 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 04:04
Re: IMO 204 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:56
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 207 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 15:45
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 207 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 16:51
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 207 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 17:04
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 203 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:29
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 212 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 17:39
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 211 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 19:57
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 201 Itatw70s 04-Apr-19 19:40
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 201 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 01:01
Spirituality 213 drrayeye 03-Apr-19 17:57
Re: Spirituality 207 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:07
Re: Spirituality 205 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:13
Regarding Bishop Spong: 204 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 20:28
Re: Regarding Bishop Spong: 205 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:36
Re: Spirituality 203 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:07
If you need help 199 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 03:52
Re: If you need help 204 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:04
Re: IMO 190 drrayeye 03-Apr-19 17:35
Re: IMO 197 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 18:31
Re: IMO 191 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:23
Re: IMO 201 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 20:28
Re: IMO 202 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:39
Re: IMO 194 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 21:13
Re: IMO 203 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 21:44
Re: IMO 198 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 22:21
Re: IMO 183 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 13:58
Re: IMO 199 Eddie Larry 04-Apr-19 17:38
Re: IMO 200 Gnostic Bishop 05-Apr-19 20:28
You've posted this already 201 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 22:57
Re: You've posted this already 204 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 12:24
God--in song 208 drrayeye 06-Apr-19 20:39
Richard Dawkins 209 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:31
Rupert is great! 206 grangram 05-Apr-19 11:49
Rediscovering God 243 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 16:44
Oh Please 201 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:14
Re: Oh Please 196 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:10
TV Popularizers 203 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 17:18
Re: IMO 222 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 19:56
Re: IMO 217 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:01
Re: IMO 212 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:07
I think I get it 217 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 18:04
Ascetic Christianity documentary 241 grangram 05-Apr-19 09:20
Re: Ascetic Christianity documentary 210 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 04:32
Re: Ascetic Christianity documentary 210 grangram 06-Apr-19 07:19
Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 252 grangram 06-Apr-19 06:03
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 223 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 15:16
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 212 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 16:38
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 207 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 16:49
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 203 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 16:59
Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 246 grangram 08-Apr-19 09:04
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 262 PB Bytes 08-Apr-19 18:05
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 235 grangram 08-Apr-19 19:28
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 241 PB Bytes 08-Apr-19 20:34
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 248 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 16:17
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 216 grangram 09-Apr-19 13:11
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 220 PB Bytes 09-Apr-19 17:33
The auto biography of a Yogi? 260 grangram 10-Apr-19 08:39
Re: The auto biography of a Yogi? 223 PB Bytes 10-Apr-19 23:15
Re: Rennes le Chateau tour guide 375 Edmond 23-May-19 08:32


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