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Mark

To question the veracity of the 'content' of a work of oral rabbinic literature until its transcription centuries after an established literary canon is akin, in the opinion of Kabbalists at least, to questioning the veracity of the 'content' of the gnostic gospels.

Proponents of an established 'canon' always dismiss other works as apocrypha or, in this case, pseudepigrapha.

One interesting defence of the Zohar is summarised here:

Quote

Within Orthodox Judaism the traditional view that Shimon bar Yochai was the author is prevalent. R' Menachem Mendel Kasher in a 1958 article in the periodical Sinai argues against the claims of Gershom Scholem that the Zohar was written in the 13th Century by R' Moses de León.vHe writes:

* Many statements in the works of the Rishonim (medieval commentors who preceded de León) refer to Medrashim that we are not aware of. He writes that these are in fact references to the Zohar. This has also been pointed out by R' David Luria in his work "Kadmus Sefer Ha'Zohar".

* The Zohar's major opponent Elijah Delmedigo refers to the Zohar as having existed for "only" 300 years. Even he agrees that it was extant at the time of R' Moses de León.

* He cites a document from R' Yitchok M' Acco who was sent by the Ramban to investigate the Zohar. The document brings witnesses that attest to the existence of the manuscript.

* It is impossible to accept that R' Moshe de León managed to forge a work within the scope of the Zohar (1700 pages) within a period of six years as Scholem claims.

* A comparison between the Zohar and de León's other works show major stylistic differences. Although he made use of his manuscript of the Zohar, many ideas presented in his works contradict or ignore ideas mentioned in the Zohar. Luria also points this out.

* Many of the Midrashic works achieved their final redaction in the Geonic period. Some of the anachronistic terminologies of the Zohar may date from that time.

* Out of the thousands of words used in the Zohar, Scholem finds two anachronistic terms and nine cases of ungrammatical usage of words. This proves that the majority of the Zohar was written within the accepted time frame and only a small amount was added later (in the Geonic period as mentioned).

* Some hard to understand terms may be attributed to acronyms or codes. He finds corollaries to such a practice in other ancient manuscripts.

* The "borrowings" from medieval commentaries may be explained in a simple manner. It is not unheard of that a note written on the side of a text should on later copying be added to the main part of the text. The Talmud itself has Geonic additions from such a cause. Certainly, this would apply to the Zohar to which there did not exist other manuscripts to compare it with.

* He cites an ancient manuscript that refers to a book Sod Gadol that seems to in fact be the Zohar.

Concerning the Zohar's lack of knowledge of the land of Israel, Scholem bases this on the many references to a city Kaputkia (Cappadocia) which he states was situated in Turkey, not in Israel. A city by this name located in Israel does appear, however, in Targum Onkelos, Targum Yonatan, Mishnah, Babylonian Talmud and several Midrashim.

Another theory as to the authorship of the Zohar is that it was transmitted like the Talmud before it was transcribed: as an oral tradition reapplied to changing conditions and eventually recorded.

The thing is: we have Thomas in India; there is a tomb of a man who bore the wounds of Roman crucifixion in Srinagar; we have a text whose author claimed are teachings purported to be at least contemporaneous with evangelical gospels writing about Brahminical practices in the East.

All very fascinating. What does it mean? I have no idea. What does it prove? Nothing at all.

Matt

Edited: to correct typos and a formatting error.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 04-Apr-19 07:17 by eyeofhorus33.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 1900 PB Bytes 29-Mar-19 17:07
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 331 Eddie Larry 29-Mar-19 17:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 310 PB Bytes 29-Mar-19 22:12
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 298 Eddie Larry 29-Mar-19 22:54
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 332 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 05:23
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 303 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 17:01
Making progress 313 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 18:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 290 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:30
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 210 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:14
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 218 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:00
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 210 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 18:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 19:05
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:15
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 214 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 20:44
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 198 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:43
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:57
Manichaeism 219 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Manichaeism 216 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 18:10
Re: Manichaeism 213 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 20:16
Re: Manichaeism 197 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:45
Re: Manichaeism 202 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 16:05
Re: Manichaeism 204 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 16:58
Re: Manichaeism 203 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 17:22
Re: Manichaeism 205 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:31
Re: Manichaeism 194 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 18:26
Re: Manichaeism 194 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:19
Re: Manichaeism 197 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 20:36
Re: Manichaeism 196 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:42
Re: Manichaeism 221 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 22:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:25
Before we go any further 215 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:45
Re: Before we go any further 204 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:05
Re: Before we go any further 213 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 17:02
Re: Before we go any further 206 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 18:04
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 215 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 209 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:38
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 202 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 15:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 213 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:19
Thanks 203 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 18:54
Re: Thanks 205 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:04
Some alternatives 206 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 21:05
Re: Some alternatives 196 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Some alternatives 210 drrayeye 02-Apr-19 20:49
Re: Some alternatives 203 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:51
Re: Thanks 225 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 19:14
Re: Thanks 208 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:55
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 208 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:46
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:52
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 211 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:04
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 212 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 198 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:54
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:38
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 18:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 191 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 02:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 Eddie Larry 02-Apr-19 04:07
Thomas in India 217 PB Bytes 02-Apr-19 04:31
Re: Thomas in India 207 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:11
Re: Thomas in India 201 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:13
Re: Thomas in India 204 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:20
Re: Thomas in India 215 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:32
Re: Thomas in India 204 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 18:40
Re: Thomas in India 200 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 19:06
Re: Thomas in India 208 eyeofhorus33 03-Apr-19 20:42
Re: Thomas in India 206 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 21:23
Re: Thomas in India 207 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 06:35
Re: Thomas in India 201 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 15:41
Inspiration 199 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 18:13
Re: Inspiration 237 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 21:30
Re: Inspiration 204 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 11:53
Re: Inspiration 208 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 17:03
Re: Inspiration 197 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 17:20
Re: Inspiration 194 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 18:23
Re: Inspiration 204 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 18:21
Re: Inspiration 241 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 18:29
James the Just 226 grangram 05-Apr-19 08:25
I agree completely 203 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 16:50
Re: I agree completely 205 grangram 05-Apr-19 17:56
Re: I agree completely 208 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 23:00
Re: James the Just 206 PB Bytes 05-Apr-19 23:27
Socrates? of course. 214 grangram 06-Apr-19 06:50
Re: Inspiration 197 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 00:47
Re: Inspiration 212 drrayeye 06-Apr-19 03:07
Re: Inspiration 200 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 12:27
Re: Thomas in India 206 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 20:18
Re: Thomas in India 221 Eddie Larry 04-Apr-19 21:24
Re: Thomas in India 224 PB Bytes 04-Apr-19 21:39
Re: Thomas in India 202 Eddie Larry 05-Apr-19 01:39
Re: Thomas in India 229 eyeofhorus33 04-Apr-19 21:42
Re: Thomas in India 203 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 00:40
Re: Thomas in India 200 Eddie Larry 05-Apr-19 00:49
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 297 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 03:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 274 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 05:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 288 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 06:14
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 285 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 14:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 282 Eddie Larry 30-Mar-19 17:56
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 276 PB Bytes 31-Mar-19 23:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 219 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:28
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 207 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:41
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 202 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 15:50
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 197 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:18
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:02
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 199 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:27
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 189 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:57
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:55
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:01
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 187 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 197 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 17:32
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:32
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 18:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 19:35
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 187 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:41
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 188 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 19:45
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 196 Eddie Larry 01-Apr-19 20:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 191 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 20:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:01
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 202 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:44
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 294 Susan Doris 30-Mar-19 06:16
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 256 PB Bytes 30-Mar-19 14:13
Youtube is very helpful 270 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 18:52
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 263 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:46
Some interesting comments 273 drrayeye 30-Mar-19 20:39
Re: Some interesting comments 298 Eddie Larry 30-Mar-19 22:45
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 395 Gnostic Bishop 31-Mar-19 20:29
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 240 PB Bytes 31-Mar-19 23:17
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 201 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 11:58
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 195 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 13:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 208 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 13:19
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 204 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 15:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 212 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 15:13
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 192 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:13
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 217 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 15:53
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 203 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 16:21
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 16:51
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 17:18
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 213 PB Bytes 01-Apr-19 17:50
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 200 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 18:27
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 190 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:11
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 191 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 19:20
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 198 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 19:47
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 199 Gnostic Bishop 01-Apr-19 20:25
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 214 drrayeye 01-Apr-19 21:48
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 206 Itatw70s 01-Apr-19 23:31
Re: Exploring the Gospel of Thomas 240 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 16:09
Our differences are our similarities.... 216 Itatw70s 02-Apr-19 18:17
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 199 Gnostic Bishop 02-Apr-19 19:44
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 203 Itatw70s 02-Apr-19 23:39
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 193 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 15:02
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 194 Itatw70s 03-Apr-19 16:34
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 197 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:03
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 196 Itatw70s 04-Apr-19 18:21
Re: Our differences are our similarities.... 193 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 00:53
IMO 222 drrayeye 02-Apr-19 23:12
About that short trip I had mentioned... 221 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 04:04
Re: IMO 199 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 14:56
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 204 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 15:45
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 202 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 16:51
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 202 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 17:04
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 198 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 17:29
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 209 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 17:39
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 206 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 19:57
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 197 Itatw70s 04-Apr-19 19:40
Re: IMO - My take after these few days 197 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 01:01
Spirituality 209 drrayeye 03-Apr-19 17:57
Re: Spirituality 203 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 18:07
Re: Spirituality 201 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:13
Regarding Bishop Spong: 199 PB Bytes 03-Apr-19 20:28
Re: Regarding Bishop Spong: 200 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:36
Re: Spirituality 198 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:07
If you need help 192 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 03:52
Re: If you need help 198 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:04
Re: IMO 185 drrayeye 03-Apr-19 17:35
Re: IMO 192 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 18:31
Re: IMO 187 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:23
Re: IMO 197 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 20:28
Re: IMO 197 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 20:39
Re: IMO 187 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 21:13
Re: IMO 197 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 21:44
Re: IMO 194 Eddie Larry 03-Apr-19 22:21
Re: IMO 178 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 13:58
Re: IMO 192 Eddie Larry 04-Apr-19 17:38
Re: IMO 196 Gnostic Bishop 05-Apr-19 20:28
You've posted this already 197 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 22:57
Re: You've posted this already 200 Gnostic Bishop 06-Apr-19 12:24
God--in song 203 drrayeye 06-Apr-19 20:39
Richard Dawkins 205 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:31
Rupert is great! 201 grangram 05-Apr-19 11:49
Rediscovering God 230 drrayeye 05-Apr-19 16:44
Oh Please 198 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:14
Re: Oh Please 192 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:10
TV Popularizers 195 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 17:18
Re: IMO 214 Gnostic Bishop 03-Apr-19 19:56
Re: IMO 211 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 04:01
Re: IMO 208 Gnostic Bishop 04-Apr-19 14:07
I think I get it 213 drrayeye 04-Apr-19 18:04
Ascetic Christianity documentary 237 grangram 05-Apr-19 09:20
Re: Ascetic Christianity documentary 206 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 04:32
Re: Ascetic Christianity documentary 205 grangram 06-Apr-19 07:19
Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 245 grangram 06-Apr-19 06:03
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 218 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 15:16
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 207 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 16:38
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 202 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 16:49
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 196 Eddie Larry 06-Apr-19 16:59
Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 243 grangram 08-Apr-19 09:04
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 256 PB Bytes 08-Apr-19 18:05
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 229 grangram 08-Apr-19 19:28
Re: Some more thoughts on Jesus' influence through James' work 235 PB Bytes 08-Apr-19 20:34
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 244 PB Bytes 06-Apr-19 16:17
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 211 grangram 09-Apr-19 13:11
Re: Thomas 78 "Why have you come out into the desert? 216 PB Bytes 09-Apr-19 17:33
The auto biography of a Yogi? 257 grangram 10-Apr-19 08:39
Re: The auto biography of a Yogi? 218 PB Bytes 10-Apr-19 23:15
Re: Rennes le Chateau tour guide 367 Edmond 23-May-19 08:32


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