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Nolondil Wrote:

An excellent answer!
-------------------------------------------------------
> Poster Boy Wrote:
>
> > Leaving aside the churches' corrupting
> influences,
> > what about those serial killers, etc? Surely
> you
> > wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> > archers!?
> >
>
Nolondil This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the
> definitions of individual identity and free will.
> How did the 'serial killer' become a
> 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic
> experience in their own lives (which may of them
> do have when you investigate) and how well did
> they cope with it? And when does someone begin to
> be held responsible for themselves?...
> The greater consequences don't change the nature
> of the situation. On the other hand, if they could
> not have changed the outcome, they are not
> entirely responsible, are they? :)

PB - I firmly agree.
>
> And these questions are a smaller scale version of
> the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real'
> in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from
> the good? This is the famous distinction between
> Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held
> 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of
> good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean
> view that evil is something real in itself,
> independent of and opposed to good -- and
> irredeemable...

PB And...
>
Nolondil > > Mainly, I dispute that this authority
> exists
> > > among mortal kind.
> >
PB > If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> > authority does or might exist elsewhere?
>
Nolondil - This really could get into metaphysics. Are there
> 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something
> that does come up on this board from time to time.
> :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other
> 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and
> effect more like karma. Which humans could not
> alter any more than the laws of physics.

PB, it does necessarily get into metaphysics, I think. Personally,
when it comes to this issue I rely mainly on my own life experience,
rather than turning to the philosophies of others. In this context
I refer to various spiritual experiences, where I believe this matter
was addressed.

For whatever it's worth, Nolondil, at the end of the day, I believe
that we live in a universe that is ultimately an extension of a greater Mind,
that we generally call God. Others call it the Tao, some the Brahman etc.

The perception of separation between 'Mind' and matter, or the universal
infinite-Mind and the sub-infinite realms is/are the ultimate
Maya, and at the higher levels of awareness this becomes clear and is
something that can be directly experienced, if only temporarily.

To your earlier point, in my estimation it follows that there is potential
to sin at various sub-infinite levels, and that such manifestations are
likely often due to indirect causes where the individual soul becomes a
victim of its environment or is prone to error for being sub-infinitely aware -
regardless of how advanced or high that level is. Such errors contain a
volitional element, but are not necessarily evil when initially made although
there seems to be great potential to exacerbate the consequences of such
original sins. Susan alludes to thresholds in this thread. I suppose that I
would say that there is such a line, with the most serious consequences being
appropriately called 'evil' for various reasons.

So, my own conclusion is that 'sin' and 'evil' are very real, but born of the
separation that necessarily follows immersion into the sub-infinite realms. I
believe that Jesus somehow understood, or was made to understand, the mechanics
of Mind-matter physics and somehow understood that dying for our sins was the remedy.
Mind-matter physics would probably be the "authority" that I envision, Nolondil, or
a significant part of it. I believe there is a universal God, of course, but I
don't think He whimsically goes about punishing us for our transgressions as much
as we set in motion processes that are more mechanistic, ie 'karmic' in nature.
Karma likely speaks to the concept of 'original' sin, I figure. As a doctrine
there is no contradiction about us being born as sinners if in the past we have
incurred karmic debt.

PB



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 31-May-18 19:03 by Poster Boy.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1233 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 244 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 228 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 221 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 206 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 228 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 205 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 194 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 227 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 205 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 223 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 281 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 260 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 230 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 209 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 207 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 225 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 219 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 248 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 262 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 205 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 209 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 211 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 204 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 218 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 202 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 222 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 311 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 205 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 218 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 201 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 223 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 204 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 206 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 231 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 210 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 209 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 272 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 251 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 240 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 225 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 220 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 202 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 211 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 204 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 213 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 228 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 203 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 196 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 256 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 223 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 280 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 244 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 289 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 211 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 218 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 193 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 211 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 228 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 199 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 233 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 200 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 260 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 197 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 191 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 209 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 213 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 198 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 257 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 224 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 242 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 202 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 216 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 215 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 193 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 209 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 228 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 201 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 246 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 202 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 217 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 211 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 241 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 230 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 229 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 281 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 202 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 234 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 249 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 218 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 244 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 203 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 204 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 239 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 223 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 197 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 193 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 209 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 252 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 285 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 209 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 202 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 224 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 226 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 211 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 224 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 214 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 210 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 211 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 202 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 200 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 223 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 214 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 282 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 211 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 229 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 227 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 238 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 255 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 330 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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