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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1252 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 264 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 252 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 250 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 254 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 240 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 227 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 299 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 247 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 277 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 249 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 223 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 224 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 241 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 233 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 268 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 249 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 283 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 227 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 224 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 233 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 216 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 242 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 327 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 221 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 233 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 216 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 248 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 222 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 245 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 223 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 222 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 287 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 265 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 262 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 244 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 236 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 218 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 225 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 223 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 226 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 244 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 218 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 212 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 273 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 240 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 295 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 258 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 304 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 225 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 232 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 208 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 227 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 243 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 212 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 247 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 221 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 274 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 212 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 206 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 231 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 229 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 281 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 238 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 263 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 230 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 229 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 207 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 232 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 244 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 215 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 264 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 218 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 232 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 231 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 218 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 230 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 226 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 255 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 252 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 245 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 297 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 216 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 255 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 233 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 265 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 237 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 233 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 258 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 218 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 228 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 258 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 231 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 239 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 212 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 208 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 222 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 266 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 307 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 224 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 217 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 238 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 248 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 233 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 218 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 228 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 240 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 228 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 225 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 225 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 219 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 215 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 237 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 235 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 306 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 232 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 225 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 243 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 241 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 230 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 254 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 277 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 348 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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