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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1231 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 232 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 227 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 207 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 221 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 206 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 227 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 204 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 193 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 227 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 204 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 222 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 281 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 260 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 228 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 207 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 207 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 224 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 218 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 247 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 262 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 204 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 209 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 211 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 203 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 218 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 202 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 220 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 311 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 205 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 218 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 201 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 223 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 206 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 231 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 210 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 207 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 271 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 251 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 240 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 225 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 220 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 202 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 211 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 204 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 212 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 228 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 203 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 195 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 256 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 223 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 280 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 244 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 288 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 211 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 218 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 193 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 211 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 228 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 198 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 233 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 199 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 260 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 197 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 190 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 209 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 212 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 198 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 256 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 224 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 241 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 201 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 215 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 215 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 192 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 209 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 228 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 200 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 246 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 202 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 208 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 211 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 240 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 230 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 229 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 281 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 202 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 234 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 212 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 249 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 218 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 244 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 203 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 204 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 238 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 223 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 197 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 193 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 209 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 252 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 284 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 209 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 202 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 224 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 226 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 215 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 203 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 223 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 213 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 210 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 210 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 202 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 199 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 223 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 202 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 214 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 280 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 209 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 229 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 227 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 238 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 255 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 330 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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