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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1150 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 200 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 188 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 188 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 189 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 173 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 179 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 166 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 174 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 177 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 165 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 166 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 175 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 163 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 147 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 183 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 170 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 175 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 174 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 175 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 187 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 185 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 163 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 163 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 177 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 173 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 202 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 195 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 212 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 157 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 167 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 163 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 163 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 174 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 162 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 176 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 251 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 164 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 172 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 157 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 164 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 177 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 181 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 178 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 162 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 187 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 170 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 176 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 158 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 164 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 171 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 206 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 197 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 183 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 172 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 153 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 165 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 160 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 172 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 176 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 159 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 156 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 209 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 180 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 231 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 196 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 239 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 163 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 172 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 155 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 165 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 181 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 145 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 193 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 152 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 210 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 150 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 151 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 162 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 170 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 153 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 214 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 175 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 167 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 190 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 160 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 167 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 169 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 152 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 162 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 187 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 158 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 195 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 156 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 160 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 167 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 163 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 157 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 172 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 163 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 186 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 190 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 187 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 241 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 159 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 186 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 166 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 200 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 168 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 170 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 198 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 164 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 159 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 188 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 168 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 179 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 150 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 144 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 166 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 209 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 229 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 163 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 156 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 168 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 174 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 153 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 174 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 156 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 169 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 177 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 168 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 164 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 167 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 160 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 150 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 175 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 162 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 177 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 170 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 166 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 176 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 182 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 171 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 189 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 214 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 284 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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