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Poster Boy Wrote:

>
> Nolondil wrote:
> >
> > The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> > 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> > the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> > government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> > did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.
>
>
> The problem with this answer, for me, is that it
> does not account for the worst among us back when
> 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark.
> Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences,
> what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you
> wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect
> archers!?
>

This will quickly lead us into the weeds of the definitions of individual identity and free will. How did the 'serial killer' become a 'serial killer'? Was it some sort of traumatic experience in their own lives (which many of them do have when you investigate) and how well did they cope with it? And when does someone begin to be held responsible for themselves? Sure, not everyone who is abused as a child grows up to become an abuser, but is the difference entirely down to their choices, or are there circumstances that people cannot overcome with 'free will'? In the one case, if there were choices made that genuinely changed the outcome, then they are responsible just as with any smaller 'mistake'. The greater consequences don't change the nature of the situation. On the other hand, if they could not have changed the outcome, they are not entirely responsible, are they? :)

And these questions are a smaller scale version of the question of the nature of evil. Is evil 'real' in itself? Or merely a separation/privation from the good? This is the famous distinction between Augustine/Boethius (and the generally held 'Christian' view) that evil is merely privation of good -- loss of perfection -- and the Manichean view that evil is something real in itself, independent of and opposed to good -- and irredeemable.

> > But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> > drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> > the power of the official church to judge it
> > and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> > concerns me (and many others).
>
>
> We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil.
> But to my same question, what of those clergy who
> preach damnation only as a means of
> self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in
> damnation, other than its potential for profit)?
> Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as
> we might use the term now, something that is just
> wrong, premeditated and vile?
>

Same issues as above. How did the devious, manipulating preacher get to be that way? Could they have made individual choices that would have made their character (and life) turn out differently? Or were they bound by 'fate' of external circumstances? But again, the greater consequences don't change the basic nature of the situation.

All of this comes down to how much importance (and power) you assign to the 'individual' and their 'free will'.

> > Mainly, I dispute that this authority exists
> > among mortal kind.
>
> If I may ask, do you believe that such an
> authority does or might exist elsewhere?

This really could get into metaphysics. Are there 'beings of higher rank' than humans? Something that does come up on this board from time to time. :) Personally, I wasn't thinking of some other 'authority', I was thinking of laws of cause and effect more like karma. Which humans could not alter any more than the laws of physics.



Edited 2 time(s). Last edit at 01-Jun-18 00:38 by Nolondil.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1246 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 255 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 246 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 246 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 249 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 237 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 231 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 239 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 204 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 237 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 232 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 293 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 242 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 270 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 239 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 219 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 217 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 235 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 229 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 258 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 245 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 272 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 221 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 214 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 228 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 211 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 231 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 323 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 215 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 229 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 211 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 237 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 241 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 282 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 261 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 249 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 235 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 231 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 214 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 221 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 215 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 222 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 239 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 214 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 207 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 267 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 234 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 291 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 253 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 299 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 221 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 228 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 203 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 222 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 238 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 208 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 242 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 211 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 270 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 207 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 224 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 208 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 270 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 233 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 252 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 226 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 225 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 204 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 219 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 239 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 260 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 213 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 227 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 227 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 212 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 223 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 221 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 251 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 240 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 239 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 292 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 246 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 222 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 260 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 223 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 229 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 253 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 214 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 214 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 250 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 234 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 207 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 204 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 218 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 263 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 297 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 218 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 212 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 233 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 236 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 211 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 227 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 234 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 225 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 221 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 213 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 209 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 233 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 227 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 295 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 239 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 236 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 249 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 265 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 342 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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