Inner Space :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For discussions on all matters relating to personal development, religion, philosophy, psychology and so on. 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Nolondil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Churches as we currently have them are mostly the
> creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments
> of the church created by the Roman Imperial
> Government.


Not sure if I agree, but I think I get what you're getting at. Three centuries of persecution prior to Constantine and all that.


Most Protestant Churches are
> affiliated with governments, essentially "national
> religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still
> the "official" religion of the UK, for example,
> but the various laws that could be used to
> penalize believers in other religions are not
> actually used any more.) Religious movements that
> don't have government endorsement have tended to
> suffer persecution by those that do have it.
> Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and
> related movements) or the Quakers.

So it's not
> some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that
> religions, at least in the "West", are actually
> political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it
> either. (But then there's not much at all original
> about Marx anyway...)

No, not idiosyncratic at all. Furthermore, there's a lot of substance to it.
>
> The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.


The problem with this answer, for me, is that it does not account for the worst among us back when 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark. Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences, what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect archers!?

> But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> the power of the official church to judge it
> and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> concerns me (and many others).


We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil. But to my same question, what of those clergy who preach damnation only as a means of self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in damnation, other than its potential for profit)? Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as we might use the term now, something that is just wrong, premeditated and vile?

Mainly, I dispute
> that this authority exists among mortal
> kind.

If I may ask, do you believe that such an authority does or might exist elsewhere?

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1251 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 263 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 252 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 250 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 254 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 232 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 208 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 242 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 243 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 298 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 247 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 275 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 247 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 223 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 224 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 241 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 233 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 267 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 249 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 281 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 225 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 222 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 233 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 216 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 238 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 326 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 221 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 233 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 216 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 247 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 221 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 245 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 230 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 223 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 222 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 287 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 265 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 260 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 242 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 236 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 217 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 225 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 222 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 226 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 244 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 218 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 212 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 273 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 240 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 295 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 258 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 303 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 225 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 232 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 207 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 225 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 243 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 212 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 247 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 220 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 274 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 211 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 206 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 228 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 228 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 277 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 238 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 225 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 259 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 230 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 229 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 207 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 230 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 243 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 215 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 264 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 217 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 232 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 230 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 229 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 225 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 255 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 248 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 244 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 295 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 216 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 255 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 230 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 264 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 235 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 233 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 258 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 217 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 224 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 257 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 231 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 239 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 212 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 208 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 222 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 266 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 307 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 223 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 217 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 237 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 248 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 231 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 218 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 228 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 239 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 228 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 225 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 225 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 217 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 214 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 237 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 216 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 233 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 304 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 231 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 225 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 243 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 241 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 230 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 253 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 274 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 347 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.