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Nolondil Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Churches as we currently have them are mostly the
> creation of governments. The Roman Catholic and
> Eastern Orthodox Churches are remaining fragments
> of the church created by the Roman Imperial
> Government.


Not sure if I agree, but I think I get what you're getting at. Three centuries of persecution prior to Constantine and all that.


Most Protestant Churches are
> affiliated with governments, essentially "national
> religions". (E.G. - The Episcopal Church is still
> the "official" religion of the UK, for example,
> but the various laws that could be used to
> penalize believers in other religions are not
> actually used any more.) Religious movements that
> don't have government endorsement have tended to
> suffer persecution by those that do have it.
> Consider the various Anabaptists (Amish, and
> related movements) or the Quakers.

So it's not
> some idiosyncratic view on my part to say that
> religions, at least in the "West", are actually
> political movements. Nothing 'Marxist' about it
> either. (But then there's not much at all original
> about Marx anyway...)

No, not idiosyncratic at all. Furthermore, there's a lot of substance to it.
>
> The word hamartia, translated very closely by
> 'sin', is used in NT documents written long before
> the co-opting of the religion by the Imperial
> government. So no, I would not claim that 'sin'
> did not exist prior to 'churches' inventing it.


The problem with this answer, for me, is that it does not account for the worst among us back when 'sin' just meant a mistake or missing the mark. Leaving aside the churches' corrupting influences, what about those serial killers, etc? Surely you wouldn't liken them to less-than-perfect archers!?

> But the concept has been severely corrupted by the
> drive to control people. The sense of debt, and
> the power of the official church to judge it
> and even discharge it
, is the new layer that
> concerns me (and many others).


We're certainly on the same page there, Nolondil. But to my same question, what of those clergy who preach damnation only as a means of self-enrichment, (those who don't believe in damnation, other than its potential for profit)? Is that just another mistake, or is it a 'sin' as we might use the term now, something that is just wrong, premeditated and vile?

Mainly, I dispute
> that this authority exists among mortal
> kind.

If I may ask, do you believe that such an authority does or might exist elsewhere?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Sin - do you?! 1246 Susan Doris 26-May-18 12:37
Re: Sin - do you?! 255 PB Bytes 26-May-18 13:38
Re: Sin - do you?! 245 Susan Doris 26-May-18 13:53
Re: Sin - do you?! 246 PB Bytes 26-May-18 18:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 248 Susan Doris 26-May-18 18:36
Re: Sin - do you?! 237 PB Bytes 26-May-18 22:49
Re: Sin - do you?! 238 Eddie Larry 26-May-18 18:34
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 231 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 13:20
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 Susan Doris 27-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 239 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 224 Susan Doris 27-May-18 17:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 PB Bytes 27-May-18 17:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 203 Eddie Larry 27-May-18 19:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 236 PB Bytes 27-May-18 20:57
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 225 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:13
Re: Sin - do you?! 232 PB Bytes 28-May-18 16:06
Re: Sin - do you?! 292 MLloydHudson 26-May-18 18:43
Re: Sin - do you?! 228 drrayeye 26-May-18 18:59
Re: Sin - do you?! 242 Susan Doris 27-May-18 05:29
Re: Sin - do you?! 270 MLloydHudson 28-May-18 06:28
mistake vs. sin: a example 239 drrayeye 26-May-18 20:03
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 219 greengirl5 26-May-18 23:14
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 217 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:20
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 234 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:07
Re: mistake vs. sin: a example 228 drrayeye 28-May-18 03:09
Re: Sin - do you?! 258 drew 27-May-18 05:22
Re: Sin - do you?! 245 Susan Doris 27-May-18 06:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 271 drew 28-May-18 02:28
Re: Sin - do you?! 215 PB Bytes 28-May-18 02:18
Re: Sin - do you?! 218 Susan Doris 28-May-18 05:18
Sin or mistake 220 greengirl5 28-May-18 13:33
Re: Sin or mistake 214 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 13:49
Re: Sin or mistake 228 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:11
Re: Sin or mistake 211 Eddie Larry 28-May-18 14:30
Re: Sin or mistake 231 Susan Doris 28-May-18 13:50
Sinners and money-lenders 322 greengirl5 28-May-18 23:25
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 214 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:27
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 228 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:08
Re: Sinners and money-lenders 211 Susan Doris 29-May-18 14:46
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:03
Re: Sin - do you?! 233 Susan Doris 28-May-18 14:16
Re: Sin - do you?! 213 PB Bytes 28-May-18 14:25
Re: Sin - do you?! 236 Susan Doris 28-May-18 15:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 229 PB Bytes 28-May-18 15:52
Re: Sin - do you?! 216 Susan Doris 28-May-18 17:11
Re: Sin - do you?! 240 PB Bytes 28-May-18 17:39
Re: Sin - do you?! 219 Susan Doris 29-May-18 05:45
Re: Sin - do you?! 226 greengirl5 29-May-18 07:27
Re: Sin - do you?! 220 Susan Doris 29-May-18 15:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 217 PB Bytes 29-May-18 22:10
Re: Sin - do you?! 234 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:12
Re: Sin - do you?! 282 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 04:24
Re: Sin - do you?! 260 drew 28-May-18 23:11
A complement--and a reminder 249 drrayeye 29-May-18 19:54
Re: A complement--and a reminder 235 Susan Doris 30-May-18 07:34
Re: A complement--and a reminder 231 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:57
Re: A complement--and a reminder 213 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:32
Re: A complement--and a reminder 221 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:31
Re: A complement--and a reminder 214 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:04
Re: A complement--and a reminder 222 drrayeye 30-May-18 20:24
Re: A complement--and a reminder 238 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:14
A caveat 213 drrayeye 31-May-18 11:45
Re: A caveat 207 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:48
Re: eloquence with words... 266 drew 02-Jun-18 01:12
Re: eloquence with words... 233 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:19
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 290 Nolondil 29-May-18 20:41
Deliberate obfuscation 253 drrayeye 29-May-18 23:20
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 299 Nolondil 29-May-18 23:50
I answer the question 220 drrayeye 30-May-18 08:32
Re: I answer the question 227 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:40
See earlier reply 202 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:35
Re: I answer the question 221 greengirl5 30-May-18 13:05
Re: I answer the question 238 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 13:54
discernment 208 drrayeye 30-May-18 16:24
Re: discernment 242 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 22:32
Re: discernment 210 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:40
Re: discernment 270 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 00:02
Thunderstruck! 206 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:28
Re: discernment 201 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 PB Bytes 30-May-18 23:14
Of course "sin" exists 223 greengirl5 30-May-18 23:54
Re: Of course "sin" exists 208 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 270 Nolondil 31-May-18 00:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 233 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:43
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:13
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 252 Nolondil 31-May-18 18:25
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:00
Original sin--sort of 225 drrayeye 31-May-18 23:26
Re: Original sin--sort of 224 greengirl5 31-May-18 23:44
Re: Original sin--sort of 204 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 03:59
Re: Original sin--sort of 219 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:24
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 238 Nolondil 01-Jun-18 00:37
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 210 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 01:35
Very interesting! 260 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 01:42
Re: Very interesting! 212 PB Bytes 01-Jun-18 04:12
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:18
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:28
If not 'mistakes' then what? 226 PB Bytes 31-May-18 15:18
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 211 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:35
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 222 PB Bytes 31-May-18 18:05
Re: If not 'mistakes' then what? 220 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 05:31
Isn't it quite simple? 251 greengirl5 29-May-18 23:55
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 240 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:11
Thinking in earnest now 239 greengirl5 30-May-18 00:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 291 Nolondil 30-May-18 00:55
Re: Thinking in earnest now 212 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:37
Re: Thinking in earnest now 246 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 09:50
Re: Thinking in earnest now 222 Susan Doris 30-May-18 11:08
Re: Thinking in earnest now 259 Eddie Larry 30-May-18 17:46
Re: Thinking in earnest now 223 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:38
Re: Thinking in earnest now 229 greengirl5 31-May-18 12:57
Re: Thinking in earnest now 253 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 14:01
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 greengirl5 31-May-18 14:19
Re: Thinking in earnest now 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 14:54
Re: Thinking in earnest now 249 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 17:35
Re: Thinking in earnest now 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 17:40
Re: Thinking in earnest now 234 Eddie Larry 31-May-18 18:25
Smart/intelligent slime 207 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:05
Re: Smart/intelligent slime 203 Susan Doris 01-Jun-18 13:29
Intelligent slime - not that simple! 218 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 23:03
Re: Intelligent slime - not that simple! 262 Susan Doris 02-Jun-18 05:36
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 296 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 02:20
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 218 greengirl5 31-May-18 02:56
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 212 Susan Doris 31-May-18 05:48
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 233 MLloydHudson 30-May-18 22:11
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 235 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:12
Re: Isn't it quite simple? 210 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:35
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 Susan Doris 30-May-18 12:09
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 PB Bytes 30-May-18 16:52
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 221 Susan Doris 30-May-18 17:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 233 PB Bytes 30-May-18 18:30
Another brainstorm of mine 225 greengirl5 31-May-18 00:56
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 220 PB Bytes 31-May-18 01:18
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:53
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 212 greengirl5 31-May-18 13:13
Re: Another brainstorm of mine 209 Susan Doris 31-May-18 15:02
the bible and God 232 greengirl5 01-Jun-18 08:16
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 213 Susan Doris 31-May-18 06:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 226 PB Bytes 31-May-18 19:14
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 295 MLloydHudson 31-May-18 03:41
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 225 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:22
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 220 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:11
Re: Deliberate obfuscation 239 PB Bytes 31-May-18 17:35
Job 236 PB Bytes 31-May-18 04:37
Re: Job 226 Susan Doris 31-May-18 07:14
Re: Sin - denotation and connotation 248 Susan Doris 30-May-18 08:00
Re: Sin - do you?! 264 Susan Doris 30-May-18 05:02
Sin do you... 341 drew 25-Jun-18 23:44


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