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"No animals place themselves in danger for no reason, thus all animal violence has a reason - it is always reasoned violence - mating, feeding, territory, self-preservation - all survival 'instincts' and all good reasons."

Having a reason and reasoning are two different things. That which you state as "survival 'instincts' " are indeed good reasons. The difference I am stating is reasoned violence versus instinctual violence. Humans at a basic level do all of those things you stated and for much the same reason. The emotions we have all stem from a basic instinctual source. You see the same emotions in the animal kingdom with mammals. The difference between us however, is that we can chose not to be affected by those emotions if we so desire. This allows us more lattitude in what our choices are. In the face of danger we can chose to fight, cower, hide, sing, dance, jump, name it...and we can make a conscious choice of how we will react. Other mammals work out of a need basis that generally stems from a preset number of instinctual responses they are limited to. This may be attributed to intelligence level<basicly saying you are only limited by that which you can imagine> but I don't know for sure.

"Another point is animals don't start wars over beliefs, and it is beliefs that separate us from the animals not reason or emotion. Beliefs are the result of our ability to imagine 'other worlds' (religious or political), they are not real, they are conceptual and, as such, all wars are irrational and unreasonable."

Forming belief structures comes from reasoning. An example would be seeing campfires on a plain and then associating stars as campfires in the heavens that the gods or those that have passed on make. That is intuitive reasoning. Something humans are quite skilled at. Now, animals can reason and do, but it is our penchant to use our reasoning for violence that sets us apart. As you said animals don't start wars over beliefs, I would take that one step further and say that animals don't start wars. They do kill, and they do kill as a group, but they do not systematically destroy those of thier own species on a whim. All wars are not irrational, or unreasonable. From a outsider perspective they may appear to be such, but in most wars, there is a reason for it...and oft times a rational reason. The Iraqi war is a good example, as was the Vietnam War, WWI, WWII, and so on down the list. Very rational reasons for inflicting violence... Now in a war, irrational things do occur, and occur often. That however, does not take away the original premise for the war. In most cases, the truly irrational things that occur, occur from people losing thier reason, and allowing thier emotions to take control of them <instinctual behavior>. Anyhow, while I agree with you partly, I feel that you confuse reasons with reasoning. If you hit me, and I hit you back, I would have a reason to hit you...but would I have used my power of reasoning to hit you? Perhaps, but it just as well could have been a instinctual reflex that required no thought...that is the difference.

&quot;A thing must be understood as certain and true in order to be known without any doubt. But for this reason, that finite knowledge had faults and defects in thy design, therefore hast thou been strangled in thine own doubts&quot; (Paracelsus)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
War is Hell 321 SunSword 03-Jun-06 01:07
Re: War is Hell 196 Gengus 03-Jun-06 03:24
Re: War is Hell 171 RaVaN 03-Jun-06 07:07
Re: War is Hell 214 IanG 03-Jun-06 08:08
Re: War is Hell 204 RaVaN 03-Jun-06 10:15
Re: War is Hell 222 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 05:08
Re: War is Hell 169 SunSword 03-Jun-06 12:24
Re: War is Hell 172 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 16:01
Re: War is Hell 196 SunSword 04-Jun-06 01:47
Re: Outcomes 205 Thunderbird 03-Jun-06 17:18
Re: Outcomes 191 Jergat 03-Jun-06 17:47
Re: Outcomes 231 Thunderbird 03-Jun-06 19:24
Kill Gene 178 Citizen Attorney 03-Jun-06 19:34
Re: Kill Gene 165 PriorityRed 03-Jun-06 20:56
Nature/Nurture 180 SunSword 04-Jun-06 13:10
Re: Kill Gene 212 ladyswanca 04-Jun-06 16:34
Re: Kill Gene 187 RaVaN 04-Jun-06 23:52
Re: Kill Gene 186 Hoppy 05-Jun-06 04:05
Re: Kill Gene 182 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 07:04
Re: Kill Gene 174 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 14:02
Re: Kill Gene 172 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:13
Re: Kill Gene 204 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 16:32
Re: Kill Gene 205 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:54
Re: Kill Gene 234 ladyswanca 05-Jun-06 16:59
Re: Kill Gene 175 Farseeker 05-Jun-06 17:29
Re: Kill Gene 159 Dave Light 06-Jun-06 12:04
Re: War is Hell 208 Hoppy 05-Jun-06 14:34
Re: War is Hell 160 RaVaN 05-Jun-06 23:40
Re: War is Hell 185 Hoppy 06-Jun-06 00:48
Re: War is Hell 191 RaVaN 06-Jun-06 05:03
Re: Headless Heroes 207 PriorityRed 05-Jun-06 23:51
Re: Headless Heroes 199 Hoppy 06-Jun-06 00:51
Re: War is Hell 178 phoboskitty 06-Jun-06 10:51
Re: War is Hell 224 phoboskitty 06-Jun-06 11:01
Re: War is Hell 282 Aarooga 06-Jun-06 13:13

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