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Hi Corp,

Corpuscles wrote:

> Hi Thanos
> As usual an interesting OP cram packed with information. Which
> can (has) lead to much thought and side reading, which is
> likely beyond the scope your intended specific focus.

Thats good though and if one interesting thought leads to another regardless of the topic I'm all for it.

> It appears it is a scholarly question focused on minutiae,
> based on or incorporating a lot of the presumptions of
> established Egyptology. ( Albeit, I realise you do not
> necessarily agree with many of its tenants)
> In focusing on that minutiae some points come to mind:
> Another alternative is that the lid or “the greater part of
> it” found by Vyse separate area to the lost sarcophagus belongs
> to a different intrusive placement at some unknown time.

This is one of the possibilities I suggest as well.

> (It is clear that in Vyse team was a gifted artist. Note the
> effort to incorporate shadow from the torch held. Given the
> skill and beauty of the drawing it seems to me it is likely a
> very accurate rendition of what they found.

It stands to reason this is most likely though probably the drawing was not finished as it is seen while the artist was sitting there and the addition of the Arabs standing there, the lighting, and some of the detail was embellished/added after the fact when the finished drawing was made. He probably roughed it out, namely the details of the sarcophagus, placement and perspective, then added the rest later. Places shadows from your light source is drawing 101. It still nags me why the drawing published by Gaspero has subtle differences.

> On a broader perspective your thread highlights many
> inconsistencies inherent in the guesswork and chain of Chinese
> type whispers that conjures up mainstream understanding of the
> various Kingdoms and Dynasties.
> There is not any consistent “sarcophagus” style of the 4th
> dynasty or OK.

Kinda is though. There are a few odd balls here and there, but they are all quite similar regardless of what designs if any are placed on them. What state of finish it is found does not speak to a style.

> If we just focus on the pictures of
> ‘sarcophagus’s” you have presented. We are led to believe and
> accept that in the space of four generations that:
> - Snefuru or the “ intern” in Meidum opted for a rough
> unpolished granite box with an ill fitting lid. The lid similar
> but of much poorer finish to the “style” of those evidenced in
> the attributed to a much later NK Serepeum.

Can you post a picture of it here?

> - Son Khufu, the most specific and demanding particular
> “pyramid builder” of all time, opted for a plain undecorated
> relatively smallish granite box. The seal rim rounded and
> rough, but the interior beautifully smooth.
> - Grandson Djedefre , (or someone buried near Abu Roash)
> wanted a beautiful alabaster (or limestone?) box decorated with
> the prominent intricate “building” or doorway pattern. However
> opted for a totally inconsistent poorly finished rough lid?
> - Other grandson Khafre, reverted to one like father Khufu,
> just a plain granite box, but thought it better to produce a
> squarish better fitting lid, sunken in a stage.

This is what I was saying too- given what we see that that can be put in a 4th Dynasty context which are all quite similar, including Menkaure, these would seem to fall outside that context, no? Menkaure's sarcophagus is typical for what is found in mastabas but a-typical to what is found in pyramids. I think this is more that just the whim and fancy of Menkaure but shows a clear disconnect in when these sarcophagi were placed there and ultimately by whom.

> -As an aside we are also asked to believe that despite his
> relatively modest taste in sarcophagus, his wife Meresankh III
> deserved the decoration of the “building” or doorway patterns
> of those of the unknown epoch folk. ( Note extremely difficult
> to achieve in hard stone, and impossible with only copper
> tools/chisels )

Excellent point.

> - Then great grandson Menkaure decided to go the whole hog on
> the wonderful elaborate “building” or doorways pattern with a
> few extras , if Vyse is to be believed in BASALT! He surely
> knew what Basalt was, as distinct from Alabaster!?
> - To top it off, the elaborate “building” or doorways pattern
> box is not only found in the Eastern cemetery of Giza as the
> picture you “dug up” shows, but there is a similar one,
> seemingly abandoned , in a corridor under Djosers step pyramid!

Interesting. Do you have a picture or link to this?

> My purely speculative amateur (perhaps ‘fresh thinking”)
> conclusion that over the ravages of many millennia of the AE
> civilization, and subsequent two millennia of post AE period
> that sarcophagus have had lids smashed and replaced mismatched,
> stolen, moved , reused, and we can’t possibly in most cases
> know when!

I totally agree,

> You asked:

Regardless, Menkaure's sarcophagus as depicted by Vyse
> seems incongruous to the time. The question is why?
> My suggested answer is because of the confused, illogical,
> inconsistent, incoherent, incongruous perspective that
> mainstream Egyptology has cobbled together of what is
> thought/guessed/presumed to be congruous to the “time” by
> which I think you mean Old Kingdom and perhaps more
> specifically 4th Dynasty.

If we take an inventory of OK mastabas, namely 4-6th Dynasties, the sarcophagi are all quite similar. The stone boxes in the pyramids are what are different which makes Menkaure's stand out like a sore thumb.

The sarcophagi of the mastabas of the OK have a long tradition that goes back to at least the 2nd Dynasty:

Note the lid.

> Please forgive, or ignore, if off topic or seemingly
> irrelevant.

Not at all, you go man. All very interesting.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 5055 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 06:34
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 464 eyeofhorus33 19-Jul-15 15:43
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 845 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 18:17
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 488 eyeofhorus33 20-Jul-15 07:24
Re: Serapeum 430 Thunderbird 19-Jul-15 16:21
Re: Serapeum 572 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 18:28
Re: Pre Dyn Pharaohs/Sumer 461 Thunderbird 20-Jul-15 20:40
Re: Pre Dyn Pharaohs/Sumer 494 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 05:31
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 418 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 17:39
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 1515 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 19:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 451 molder 20-Jul-15 12:05
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 433 Spiros 20-Jul-15 13:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 463 Spiros 23-Jul-15 02:27
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 560 DScribr 20-Jul-15 19:56
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 534 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 02:28
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 350 Thunderbird 21-Jul-15 15:23
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 389 DScribr 21-Jul-15 19:48
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 509 eyeofhorus33 21-Jul-15 21:51
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 406 Jon Ellison 21-Jul-15 22:41
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 536 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 05:16
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 388 Corpuscles 22-Jul-15 08:23
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 401 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:28
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 429 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 00:21
Ascension 433 loveritas 22-Jul-15 12:53
Re: Ascension 417 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 05:17
Re: Ascension 421 Sirfiroth 23-Jul-15 09:49
Re: Ascension 404 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 18:03
Re: Ascension 438 Thunderbird 23-Jul-15 14:53
The Aryans 584 loveritas 24-Jul-15 05:00
Re: The Aryans 662 Jon Ellison 24-Jul-15 09:49
Re: The Aryans 405 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 04:11
Re: 2 Doors 400 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:54
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 476 Thunderbird 24-Jul-15 19:39
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 527 loveritas 25-Jul-15 00:55
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 454 Thunderbird 25-Jul-15 15:59
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 601 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 20:39
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 471 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 01:43
Re: Vinca/Indus/Mu - Lemuria 697 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 02:38
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 425 loveritas 26-Jul-15 03:05
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 751 Thanos5150 26-Jul-15 06:11
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 582 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 15:59
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 659 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 15:30
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 1151 Thanos5150 26-Jul-15 23:56
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 411 Corpuscles 27-Jul-15 02:08
Re: Dating 436 Thanos5150 27-Jul-15 05:11
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 477 Brian Patterson 27-Jul-15 15:34
Re: Out of Thessaly 458 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 02:36
Re: Out of Thessaly 460 loveritas 27-Jul-15 03:44
Re: Out of Thessaly 451 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 05:37
Re: Out of Thessaly 452 Origyptian 28-Jul-15 02:16
Re: Posnansky Tiawanaku 438 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 02:47
Re: Sargon/Menes 455 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 01:59
Re: Sargon/Menes 1013 Thanos5150 28-Jul-15 06:30
Re: Sargons Empire 425 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 14:51
Re: Sargons Empire 419 Thanos5150 28-Jul-15 17:54
Re: Sargons Empire 557 Origyptian 28-Jul-15 22:22
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 472 Thunderbird 29-Jul-15 20:30
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 467 loveritas 29-Jul-15 22:31
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 627 Thunderbird 30-Jul-15 22:10
Now There's a Sarcophagus! 461 loveritas 27-Jul-15 00:08
Re:Be kind.....recycle : ) 479 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 01:27
Re: Re:Be kind.....recycle : ) 406 Thanos5150 27-Jul-15 01:41
Re: Now There's a Sarcophagus! 450 Origyptian 27-Jul-15 02:17
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus, ETC. 402 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:43
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 404 Corpuscles 21-Jul-15 07:19
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 402 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 19:40
Re: I see Glass 435 molder 21-Jul-15 10:51
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 542 Archae Solenhofen 21-Jul-15 15:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 389 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 18:31
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 428 Archae Solenhofen 21-Jul-15 20:14
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 489 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 00:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 489 DUNE 21-Jul-15 20:18
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 447 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 04:29
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 651 DUNE 22-Jul-15 09:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 422 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 04:58
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 479 Corpuscles 23-Jul-15 11:06
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 529 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 16:31
Re: Menkaure's Format 407 DScribr 23-Jul-15 19:10
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 643 Corpuscles 24-Jul-15 03:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 444 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 02:33
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 519 Corpuscles 25-Jul-15 04:01
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 545 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 04:56
Without inscriptions. 476 DScribr 23-Jul-15 21:13
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 693 Thanos5150 24-Jul-15 03:08

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