Mysteries :  The Official forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Hi Willie,

DScribr wrote:

> Hi Lee, good presentation.
> Not sure if it matters here, but, most likely, Mr. Hill or Mr.
> Andrews drew the diagram, (from Ops) you posted. IMO, the
> differences between this and Gaspero's drawing are very small.

Small, but worth noting not only because they should be identical whether they are both from an actual object or one drawing from another, but also these subtle differences in what Gaspero shows is identical to what is seen at Abu Roash. The differences make us question what the sarcophagus actually looked like and by extension its provenance. If you remove the embellishments of the triangle border pattern and the lid, and remove the extended pillar lines as does the Gaspero drawing, it actually is identical to what is found at Abu Roash which I think is most likely what it originally looked like. Compare when the embellishments are removed:

Identical. Which in context of the OK is what would be expected rather than what is depicted by Vyse.

> I agree w/ Vyse in that the sarcophagus was moved, and
> initially rested in room's center. The idea that treasure was
> buried beneath the floor under the sarcophagus was a common
> one.

Totally possible. The room is rather small so it wasn't moved very far.

> Vyse, like all Egyptologists of his day were entitled to a
> share of the artifacts that were found, and he had the Pacha's
> permission to do so. Those who financed an Egyptoplogist's dig
> expected their man to bring them something(s) for their money
> spent.
> In Vyse's case however, he footed his own bill, and he donated
> most-if not all-of his share of artifacts to the BM. The BM was
> paid by the insurance Co. for the loss of the
> sarcophagus...IIRC, it was 348 BPS...a paltry sum by today's
> standards for such an artifact. (I'd like to see the Beatrice
> raised as it was fully loaded w/ all manner of Egyptian
> artifacts.)

I would not fault Vyse for removing it given the mores of the time and the nature of his work. Claiming his reasons for doing so was in fear it would be "damaged" I find a bit lacking.

> Not all sarcophagi and/or palace facades are exactly alike. It
> is a nearly identical OK sarcophagus found at Abu Roash.
> Probably the differences are intentional, or possibly due to a
> different artist, (stone carver).

This goes without saying, but we are not talking about palace facade in general, but rather a distinct and singular building. Yes, many artists depicted it symbolically or stylistically, but the attention to detail of the Menkaure and Abu Roash sarcophagi in particular are so striking and so nearly identical, if not as I believe is possible-actually "identical", it leaves me to question the differences as depicted by Vyse and co. as original. The triangular border pattern is one thing, though I still suggest it was added later, but the lid is clearly out of place in the OK and they didn't make them this way in the MK and later as the cornice was part of the sarcophagi itself and not the "lid" unless made of wood. Whether this was a fanciful recreation on Vyse's part from things he had seen elsewhere, which he mentions, or a later addition I do not know.

> Once a given tomb was entered by tomb-robbers, it ceased to be
> a pristine environment, so it's very difficult for us to tell
> who did what and when.

Indeed. Which is why we have to rely on context which there are no lids like this in the OK and no match for the border pattern, though as I concede I was able to find an unfinished painted one similar though again we are left to question its provenance.

> #s 2-5 are very real possibilities, and I favor #5. (King Tut's
> tomb also shows us examples of innovation, and of reverting
> back to older styles.)

Regardless of the border pattern, #1 is still valid because we are certain he recreated the lid. The only question is how much of the actual pieces of lid he found inspired this rendition if at all. All things considered, at the very least there is something not right about the lid.

#5 is the safest, but my least favorite mostly because of the lid. Can't get over it. It just doesn't belong in the OK and the MK and later did not make them out of stone that way regardless. It is more plausible to me the lid was actually like Meresankh III's or was like other lids of the time which given the uncertainty of the pieces Vyse found they inverted it in their recreation based on later MK sarcophagi they had seen unaware this style did not exist in the OK.

Interesting that EoH would bring up Khaemwaset (NK) who apparently took an interest in restoring sites from the OK including Giza. Egyptologists believe it was he who inscribed Menkaure's name on the entrance (of the temple I believe and not the pyramid, but I could be wrong) so maybe it was Khaemwaset who restored Menkaure's sarcophagus by painting the border pattern and installing a new lid of a style common to his time. We also know there was an intrusive burial there regardless of when and given tomb robbers would a have smashed and grabbed what they could it is logical by the time of this burial the lid would have been removed and damaged necessitating the need of a new lid made in a style of the time.

Post Edited (21-Jul-15 02:35)

Options: ReplyQuote

Subject Views Written By Posted
Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 5055 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 06:34
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 464 eyeofhorus33 19-Jul-15 15:43
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 845 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 18:17
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 488 eyeofhorus33 20-Jul-15 07:24
Re: Serapeum 430 Thunderbird 19-Jul-15 16:21
Re: Serapeum 572 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 18:28
Re: Pre Dyn Pharaohs/Sumer 461 Thunderbird 20-Jul-15 20:40
Re: Pre Dyn Pharaohs/Sumer 494 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 05:31
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 418 Thanos5150 19-Jul-15 17:39
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 1515 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 19:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 451 molder 20-Jul-15 12:05
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 433 Spiros 20-Jul-15 13:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 463 Spiros 23-Jul-15 02:27
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 560 DScribr 20-Jul-15 19:56
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 533 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 02:28
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 350 Thunderbird 21-Jul-15 15:23
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 389 DScribr 21-Jul-15 19:48
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 509 eyeofhorus33 21-Jul-15 21:51
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 406 Jon Ellison 21-Jul-15 22:41
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 536 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 05:16
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 388 Corpuscles 22-Jul-15 08:23
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 401 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:28
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 429 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 00:21
Ascension 433 loveritas 22-Jul-15 12:53
Re: Ascension 417 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 05:17
Re: Ascension 421 Sirfiroth 23-Jul-15 09:49
Re: Ascension 404 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 18:03
Re: Ascension 438 Thunderbird 23-Jul-15 14:53
The Aryans 584 loveritas 24-Jul-15 05:00
Re: The Aryans 662 Jon Ellison 24-Jul-15 09:49
Re: The Aryans 405 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 04:11
Re: 2 Doors 400 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:54
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 476 Thunderbird 24-Jul-15 19:39
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 527 loveritas 25-Jul-15 00:55
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 454 Thunderbird 25-Jul-15 15:59
Re: 7 Gates - Book of the Dead 601 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 20:39
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 471 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 01:43
Re: Vinca/Indus/Mu - Lemuria 697 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 02:38
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 425 loveritas 26-Jul-15 03:05
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 751 Thanos5150 26-Jul-15 06:11
Re: Revisionists and the Theosophical community 582 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 15:59
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 659 Thunderbird 26-Jul-15 15:30
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 1151 Thanos5150 26-Jul-15 23:56
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 411 Corpuscles 27-Jul-15 02:08
Re: Dating 436 Thanos5150 27-Jul-15 05:11
Re: Sumer DNA Evidence 477 Brian Patterson 27-Jul-15 15:34
Re: Out of Thessaly 458 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 02:36
Re: Out of Thessaly 460 loveritas 27-Jul-15 03:44
Re: Out of Thessaly 451 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 05:37
Re: Out of Thessaly 452 Origyptian 28-Jul-15 02:16
Re: Posnansky Tiawanaku 438 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 02:47
Re: Sargon/Menes 455 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 01:59
Re: Sargon/Menes 1013 Thanos5150 28-Jul-15 06:30
Re: Sargons Empire 425 Thunderbird 28-Jul-15 14:51
Re: Sargons Empire 419 Thanos5150 28-Jul-15 17:54
Re: Sargons Empire 557 Origyptian 28-Jul-15 22:22
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 472 Thunderbird 29-Jul-15 20:30
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 467 loveritas 29-Jul-15 22:31
Re: Saron/Har Ka- Narmer/Naram Sin 627 Thunderbird 30-Jul-15 22:10
Now There's a Sarcophagus! 461 loveritas 27-Jul-15 00:08
Re:Be kind.....recycle : ) 479 Thunderbird 27-Jul-15 01:27
Re: Re:Be kind.....recycle : ) 406 Thanos5150 27-Jul-15 01:41
Re: Now There's a Sarcophagus! 450 Origyptian 27-Jul-15 02:17
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus, ETC. 402 DScribr 23-Jul-15 18:43
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 404 Corpuscles 21-Jul-15 07:19
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 402 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 19:40
Re: I see Glass 435 molder 21-Jul-15 10:51
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 542 Archae Solenhofen 21-Jul-15 15:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 389 Thanos5150 21-Jul-15 18:31
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 428 Archae Solenhofen 21-Jul-15 20:14
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 489 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 00:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 489 DUNE 21-Jul-15 20:18
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 447 Thanos5150 22-Jul-15 04:29
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 651 DUNE 22-Jul-15 09:02
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 422 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 04:58
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 479 Corpuscles 23-Jul-15 11:06
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 529 Thanos5150 23-Jul-15 16:31
Re: Menkaure's Format 407 DScribr 23-Jul-15 19:10
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 643 Corpuscles 24-Jul-15 03:59
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 444 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 02:33
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 519 Corpuscles 25-Jul-15 04:01
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 545 Thanos5150 25-Jul-15 04:56
Without inscriptions. 476 DScribr 23-Jul-15 21:13
Re: Menkaure's Sarcophagus Revisited 693 Thanos5150 24-Jul-15 03:08

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.