An interesting reply thanks.
> Before you folks get hurt chest bumping each other, let me
> remind you that no one has said granite wasn't worked anywhere
> else in the world. The allegation that anyone is claiming that
> no one on planet Earth knew how to work granite during that
> time has come up a few times recently, and it is baseless.
> You talk as though there is no precedent for a civilization
> constraining its technology from other civilizations.
> Regarding granite in Europe, is there any dispute that in the
> past millennium, Europe was not capable of any significant
> precision granite work until the 18th century AD, despite its
> longstanding access to iron technology?
>> And so, considering such precedents along with the accepted
> notion that Renaissance Italy did not have granite working
> technology and simply repurposed columns from Egypt , despite
> all of the other excellent examples of granite stonework
> elsewhere on Earth, the only point of contention that I (and
> perhaps Jon) have exprerssed is that I'd like to see direct
> evidence that the early AD Roman Empire hewn and shaped granite
> from the quarries for such large scale industrial purposes such
> as Hadrian's Pantheon vs. repurposing such granite objects that
> were pre-existing and were merely reshaped to add the
> ornamentals using sculptural chisels.
> From all that I've seen from Mons Claudianus, there is
> compelling evidence that those granite artifacts were not
> quarried by the Romans but rather were originally part of the
> infrastructure of far older structures within those settlements
> and that any "quarrying" done by the Romans at those sites
> might better resemble the "quarrying" that was done on G1/G2
> when post-dynastic Egypt needed an easy source of industrial
> stone they could repurpose, e.g., for their mosques.
> Please stop over-reaching the scope of the contention.
Phil , my purpose is not to embarrass you (or Jon) but is to offer some "evidence"
or FACT that might help you drop a totally incorrect /mistaken premise or oft repeated and bleated mantra.
If anyone is over reaching it is you. With comments see your post underlined above.
"is there any dispute that " , "the accepted notion that Renaissance Italy did not" , "compelling evidence that"
Now Loveritas rather blunt, somewhat harsh 2nd reply (directed at you) in this thread was I think a comment
of enough is enough with the demand for hard evidence (what is) and your denial of contra claims by (what isn't) and then
your reference to your speculative ,most likely thoughts, as constituting "compelling evidence"
Now as you your claim of granite working in Europe. You simply must have not done the research! It is ignorance.
Firstly it would help if you gained some knowledge of the happenings in Europe in that period.
It would be better if you did the research first hand then you will only be arguing with yourself or could come and ask for other opinions.
To get you started :
Here is a list from wiki of the castles built by Europeans during the crusades.
or simply google "Granite building during the crusades."
You will find lots of castles with massive granite outer walls
Most notable are :
Krak des Chevaliers was built during the 12th and 13th centuries by the Knights Hospitaller .
The remains of Belvoir Castle
Syria and Israel
or simply google "Granite building during the crusades."
This will ultimately return results that show the very considerable use of granite
in places like Finland and Sweden and what we call the Baltic states.
But if what you mean is staggeringly, breath takingly beautiful finished granite
then may I refer you to the region of Europe once known as Yugoslavia!
In particular Dubrovnik, Croatia Europe.
Here is a book for $20 which will surely answer your question as to" is there any dispute that Europe was incapable"
rather absolutely "over reaching" to even contemplate that!
The book is called "Dubrovnik Guided Walks" described as " Breathtaking city built of marble and granite"
You wont have to buy or read the books that website has several pictures I have not posted lest I be accused
As for your comments re Pantheon....
I also can only suggest you get stuck into some research about the Roman era
One of the reasons Loveritas put in all that extensive bibliography to his post to me
about the mons claudianus granite was to point to all the extensive analysis conducted on the
provenance of the stone including geologic testing ! Note Potts (Electron microscope studies and X-ray analysis)
Did this unknown civilization who built a major temple on the site of mons claudianus
Acquire those yellow marble columns from Carthage
They happened to have the Imperial Porphyry columns already made?
What about the grey marble blocks.... were they all there too?
The specific marbles here suggested as related to the idea of imperium include purple Imperial Porphyry from Egypt (Mons Porphyrites), Docimian pavonazzetto from Asia Minor (Marmor docimenium) and
yellow Giallo Numidiana marble from Carthage (Marmor numidicum) and - perhaps to complete a Mediterranean "square" - an as-yet unprovenanced gray Granito Grigio
probably from the northwest (Pyrenees, Gaul or the Alps?).
Taken from an essay based on lecture series on the Pantheon stone work by Stanford University.
Note the "Granito Grigio" is different granite than the Mons Claudianus granodiorite (granito del foro)!
Of course the Romans quarried and made columns of other granite as well!
Like the red granite in S. Maria degli Angeli.
The point to all this is to try as friendly as I can to indicate it might be a good idea that
before diss'n on any opinion and demanding "hard evidence" that you first thoroughly research it yourself
first. Also call any wild speculation or conjecture or your "logical" premise. Your belief... not the "compelling evidence"
Post Edited (20-Jun-15 06:41)