Scott Creighton wrote:
> Hi Lee,
LA: Has one example ever been found the size of a stone
> box like those in the pyramids let alone found in the OK or
> earlier? I know of none... Where is one example you can cite
> that dates to the OK or before that has a stone box with lid
> known to have been used for another purpose than interring a
I said a lot more than that. Disappointing you would ignore the rest when they are clearly valid arguments against the plausibility of your theory.
> SC: In 1818 Belzoni was the first 'modern' explorer to enter
> the chamber within G2. When he removed the partially broken lid
> and searched the stone box within the chamber, he found it to
> be filled with earth, stones and some fragments of bone (of a
Ah, this old chestnut. When you said "There are different cultural contexts evidenced in ancient Egypt for stone boxes", i.e. contexts in the plural, I thought you meant there were "others" beyond your "neb-ankh" theory which is specifically what I asked-do you know of any other contexts these large stone boxes with lids were used? So I am correct to think you were not speaking in the plural and this is the only possible use you know of? Which leads us back to the comments from my previous post that have summarily rejected this possibility.
> Belzoni seemed somewhat bewildered by his discovery, putting it
> down to some ancient joke. I do not see why this earth could
> not have been the original content of the stone container, the
> archetype 'neb-ankh'.
I see many reasons. Osiris beds do not have lids. Kind of defeats the purpose or germinating and growing the wheat. Nothing substantial if at all of its kind has been found between the Late Period (c. 712-332BC) and the OK not to mention, again, Osiris beds are merely a regional phenomenon found in the Thebes region hundreds of miles from the nearest notable pyramid. What kind of sort of maybe might be a precursor to this found in the 2nd Dynasty is nothing like the later Osiris beds. Wood coffins already existed in the 2nd dynasty eerily similar to their stone counterparts that began popping up in the 3rd dynasty and none have been found to have been used as Osiris beds. In fact, other than putting bodies in them, they have yet been found to have any other purpose. I was hoping you had one.
Belzoni did not say it was "filled" with earth and stone, but rather that it contained a "great quantity" of this material. As compared to what? Nothing? He also said "the lid had been broken at the side, so that the sarcophagus was half open". No where does he say he had to remove the lid to look inside implying there was no need as it was already "half open" anyways. He does not notice the bones among the "rubbish" until the next day implying they are quite small to be "bull bones". Interestingly, he then goes to look around the chamber for inscriptions which he finds the walls covered in Arabic writing, among possibly others, meaning obviously the place was well visited before him.
The next day a gentleman Pieri came with him in which having "rummaged through the rubbish" found several pieces of bone which he claims were later sent to London and "proved" to be those of a bull, but this is not been verified since. Could be chicken bones for all we know.
And no, Belzoni did not put the discovery down to an "ancient joke" which is kind of a strange thing to say if you actually read it. He is specifically referring to "some consequential persons" who upon learning of the discovery of the bones:
would not scruple to sacrifice a point in history, rather than lose a bon mot [a witty remark], thought themselves mighty clever in baptising the said bones those of a cow merely to raise a joke. So much for their taste in antiquity.
I am not sure how you could confuse this with being Belzoni's opinion. He is not bewildered by it nor does he consider it a joke.
Regardless, he then goes on to say how some suggested the [pyramid] sarcophagi may be connected to the enormous sarcophagi found in Thebes "more fit for a bull than a human" which he disagrees.
So, what he found in his own words was a "great quantity" of "rubbish", or as we Americans call it-"trash", filled with dirt, stones, and several pieces of bone which apparently were not that large as expected from a bull as he didn't even notice them the first time he looked and were only discovered by "rummaging" through the "rubbish". He found the lid broken and the "stone box" half way open and makes no mention of having to remove it. He finds numerous Arabic writing among others giving the clear impression G2 had been breached in antiquity more times than a $7 whore. There is literally nothing to suggest what was in the stone box was original if only to the contrary. Your interpretation of Belzoni's remarks seems quite at odds with what he actually says.
> During the later Osirian Festival of
> Khoiak, Egyptians would commemorate the original chthonic
> function of the first pyramids and their archetype neb-ankh, by
> creating their very own small, ceremonial 'neb-ankh' (which
> Egyptologists today call 'Osiris Beds' or 'Osiris Bricks').
> These would be filled with earth, some grain scattered on the
> earth and placed in the ground with a rock placed on top; the
> rock symbolizing the pyramid.
Why do you state this as fact when it is merely your interpretation to fit your established narrative one not shared, well, by anyone? You can say you "believe" this, which other than your already misguided beliefs regarding the Osiris beds, there is no reason to, but don't pass it off as a fact as this is what the Khoiak festival represented.
> As part of this Festival of Khoiak the AEs would also make what
> we call 'Corn Mummies'.
Who is this "we"? Me and you? Egyptologists coined the term "corn mummies" which last time I checked you were not counted among them.
My asking you these questions is not an invitation to copy and paste a synopsis of your beliefs for the umpteenth time which quite frankly has already been readily dismissed by your fellow posters alternative or otherwise.
> The stone box in G2 was found filled with earth.
It was filled with “rubbish”, i.e. “trash” which included dirt, stones, bones, among other junk we can assume. There are a dozen reasons for this before we are left with the possibility this was from being an "Osiris bed". And for sake of argument, given Osiris beds are a Late period cultural invention, if this ever were used as such there is 99.9% certainty it was intrusive made thousands of years after the fact as this just did not exist in the OK let alone at any point in between.
> Later AE
> dynasties knew that the stone boxes in these first pyramids
> were filled with earth for they celebrated the fact with their
> very own small, ceremonial stone boxes (sometimes wooden)
> filled with earth.
No they did not. There is no evidence whatsoever to support this claim which “rubbish” found in G2 hardly counts for one on several levels. Associating these Osiris beds with the “stone boxes” of the pyramids has no context or evidence other than your disjointed and unwarranted claims created only to support your already maligned narrative the pyramids were made as “recovery vaults”.
“Ceremonial STONE boxes? You sure about that? Scott, you have made a cottage industry for yourself on your beliefs surrounding the Osiris beds which you claim by default some kind of expertise in the matter, yet you are saying they are made of “stone” but nearly every one ever found were made of fired pottery clay with a few exceptions in wood. So not only do they have nothing to do with the stone boxes of the pyramids they are not even as you claim made of stone. Can you give me an example of stone Osiris beds?
> So yes--there is documentary evidence of a 'neb-ankh' inside an
> Old Kingdom pyramid.
Actually, no there is not. At all. Just saying there is does not make it so and you have offered nothing but conjecture the product of your own reinterpretation/misinterpretation of unrelated cultural objects found thousands of years after the fact with no indication of any relevance to each other. The only “documentary evidence” you offer is a pile of poorly documented “rubbish” found in G2 which given all I have already said clearly gives us zero reason to believe this “trash” is related to Osiris beds or recovery vaults and he like.
So, the answer I have received is a clear “no” there are no other known functions of these stone boxes beyond a funerary context. Which is kind of a bummer because I was hoping there was one.