Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Martin Stower wrote:

> Really? Perhaps I should start “cleaning up” my images — but
> then I know that “cleaning” presupposes a judgement on what is
> and what it not legitimately present and in that judgement the
> entire issue is judged.

Yes, "really". I think the context of what I meant by "cleaning up" is clear.

> Perhaps you could explain why we don’t see this “pen trail”
> (first horizontal line) in the second circle, if Vyse was so
> prone to it? Or, for that matter, in the empty circles on the
> page?

Where did I say he was "prone" to it? It looks to me as if one was drawn with a little more care than the other with the circle in question, also given its relative size and insignificant placement on the page, more consistent with a random thought or "doodle". His penmanship is beautiful and his drawings suck. He is sketching in a notebook, not using autocad, so pen trails, double lines, wavy lines, ect would be typical particularly with this kind of pen.

>

>
>

>
> Only once do we see this “pen trail”.

No. You can see one on the bottom right on the lower circle as well as those in the cartouches, though obviously not as extreme, but the circle in question, again, is more of a throwaway "doodle".

> That suggests to me
> that Vyse was not prone to accidental “pen trails” in his
> circles at all — that where we see lines, he put them in
> deliberately.

I disagree. There are numerous "accidental" mistakes in all of his drawings as would be expected from someone who apparently is no artist sketching with a nibbed fountain pen in particular.

> I have to say also that the slant of his writing isn’t
> obviously suggestive of his having been left-handed.

Why not? My handwriting slants forward. His circles appear to be left handed. I need a right handed person to test this, but from the looks of it his circles start and stop at the same place mine do.

> > You can also see that the bottom "horizontal line" is
> connected to the
> > center "dot"" by a pen trail and is not a separate line but
> rather an
> > artifact of drawing the dot.

> Actually, no, I can’t see that, certainly not clearly.

I can.

> I’m
> more inclined to see a pen trail here than I am in the case of
> the first horizontal line, but what I see is more suggestive of
> hesitancy than a dot. (He managed to dot his i’s and j’s with
> no obvious sign of difficulty.)

As I said, just quickly draw a circle and this "curlycue" is exactly where it would be as is the termination point for all of his circles. There is a big difference between "dotting ones i's and j's", particularly with this kind of pen, and drawing a filled in circle which we are only referring to as a "dot" for convenience. When one wants to "dot an i" it is merely a tap of the pen. When one wants to draw a filled in circle with this kind of pen in particular it is much easier and safer to go back and forth side to side instead of in a circle as the nib digs into the paper on the upturn. I am not making up an argument from nothing, these are just some of the tricks and/or haphazards of drawing with these pens.

> I see him drawing the circle, drawing the first horizontal
> line, starting on the second, realising that the circle really
> isn’t big enough and starting again below.

I see a hastily drawn doodle which he follows through at the top of the circle and trails the pen straight across. The "dot" is made by quickly moving the pen back and forth and the mark below it is a trail and impact from the last line. And honestly, just looking at the two, if they were meant to be one and the same why is the top one so poorly defined while the other is plain as day?

Again, I am 100% certain a handwriting expert could easily clear this up. I have been drawing my whole life and have worked professionally in the past as a cartoonist and when I look at his drawings I see very common pen line artifacts of drawing with ink, particularly with a nib. Just looking at it and drawing the same things quickly I can easily "accidentally" reproduce both the top line and the bottom line from the dot.

> What I don’t see is anything which even begins to justify the
> hype about this being a “historic discovery” and “damning”
> evidence. Damning? I wouldn’t issue a caution on evidence
> this thin.

I am not arguing with you about that, or anything else that rubs you wrong about Scott, I am just telling you what I see in that circle. If this is some "sinister plot" or "historic discovery" I am none the wiser, but regardless the drawing in question does look like a scribbled circle with a dot with common accidental artifacts.

If we did want to have this looked at by a handwriting expert is there a "Stower approved" scan you can post here of a good viewable size?



Post Edited (27-May-14 22:37)

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Further comments on Creighton’s article [Thread Closed] 1097 Martin Stower 23-May-14 00:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 621 drew 23-May-14 04:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 725 Martin Stower 23-May-14 09:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 699 Skatha 23-May-14 04:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 662 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:11
Desperate 654 LonelyAngel 23-May-14 13:11
Re: Desperate 704 Martin Stower 23-May-14 13:46
Mod Note > LonelyAngel – Reminder 722 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-14 17:19
Re: Desperate 673 eyeofhorus33 23-May-14 17:56
Re: Desperate 691 Martin Stower 23-May-14 23:12
Re: Desperate 673 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 14:15
Re: Desperate 647 Brian Patterson 25-May-14 15:30
Re: Desperate 670 Martin Stower 25-May-14 15:48
Re: Desperate 647 Ahatmose 25-May-14 16:04
Re: Desperate 618 Martin Stower 25-May-14 16:56
Re: Desperate 743 Ahatmose 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 692 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:24
Re: Desperate 717 Martin Stower 26-May-14 00:19
Re: Desperate 629 cladking 25-May-14 22:30
Re: Desperate 583 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 17:13
Re: Desperate 629 LonelyAngel 25-May-14 20:51
Re: Desperate 687 Martin Stower 25-May-14 22:47
Re: Desperate 609 eyeofhorus33 26-May-14 08:35
Further comments II 1265 Martin Stower 24-May-14 18:20
Re: Further comments II 624 Thanos5150 24-May-14 19:31
Re: Further comments II 630 Martin Stower 24-May-14 19:51
Re: Further comments II 658 Thanos5150 25-May-14 01:35
Re: Further comments II 597 drew 25-May-14 03:47
Re: Further comments II 693 eyeofhorus33 25-May-14 10:01
Re: Further comments II 644 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:05
Re: Further comments II 694 Martin Stower 25-May-14 12:01
Further comments III 1203 Martin Stower 26-May-14 02:14
Re: Further comments III 664 Thanos5150 27-May-14 17:06
Re: Further comments III 673 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:12
Re: Further comments III 652 Thanos5150 27-May-14 22:34
Re: Further comments III 668 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:52
Re: Further comments III 673 Dr. Troglodyte 27-May-14 23:04
Re: Further comments III 657 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:23
Re: Further comments III 638 Martin Stower 27-May-14 23:44
Re: Further comments III 618 Thanos5150 27-May-14 23:54
Re: Further comments III 659 Martin Stower 28-May-14 00:08
Re: Further comments III 632 Thanos5150 28-May-14 00:59
Re: Further comments III 683 Martin Stower 29-May-14 00:00
Re: Further comments III 692 Skatha 30-May-14 00:16
Re: Further comments III 635 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:57
Re: Further comments III 659 Thanos5150 30-May-14 17:43
Re: Further comments III 684 randompHactor 30-May-14 18:17
Re: Further comments III 575 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments III 652 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:21
Re: Further comments III 644 Martin Stower 30-May-14 20:43
Re: Further comments III 619 Thanos5150 30-May-14 20:56
Re: Further comments III 1068 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:15
Re: Further comments III 730 Thanos5150 31-May-14 00:28
Re: Further comments III 689 AmadeusD 31-May-14 02:42
Re: Further comments III 670 Martin Stower 31-May-14 07:56
Re: Further comments III 627 sfbey 30-May-14 21:16
Re: Further comments III 667 Dr. Troglodyte 30-May-14 20:12
Re: Further comments III 694 Audrey 30-May-14 05:34
Re: Further comments III 635 Martin Stower 30-May-14 09:25
Re: Further comments III 669 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:35
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 715 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:15
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 687 Martin Stower 27-May-14 19:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 664 D-Archer 27-May-14 19:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 686 Martin Stower 27-May-14 22:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 709 D-Archer 28-May-14 10:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 772 Martin Stower 28-May-14 13:10
Drawn...and quartered : ) 649 Thunderbird 30-May-14 03:52
Re: Drawn...and quartered : ) 676 Martin Stower 30-May-14 12:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 674 k_mand 30-May-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 672 Martin Stower 30-May-14 19:31
What have you missed? 614 Thunderbird 30-May-14 22:49
Re: What have you missed? 702 Martin Stower 30-May-14 23:09
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 682 k_mand 31-May-14 04:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 636 Martin Stower 31-May-14 08:17
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 637 k_mand 01-Jun-14 02:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 578 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 626 Thanos5150 01-Jun-14 17:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 624 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 19:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 682 Thanos5150 02-Jun-14 02:26
The cult of Khufu 700 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 03:40
I’d buy that for a dollar! 643 Martin Stower 30-May-14 21:53
Not worth it ... 759 Ahatmose 31-May-14 01:55
Re: Not worth it ... 683 Brian Patterson 31-May-14 04:04
The Mud Slinging Has Started 652 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 09:17
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 727 Ahatmose 31-May-14 11:47
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 638 Scott Creighton 31-May-14 12:00
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 654 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:45
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 629 Ahatmose 31-May-14 23:14
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 626 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 692 Audrey 01-Jun-14 05:04
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 671 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 06:06
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 574 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:35
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 681 Audrey 01-Jun-14 17:43
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 654 eyeofhorus33 01-Jun-14 19:35
Follow the cult follow the... 530 Thunderbird 01-Jun-14 21:11
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 694 Audrey 03-Jun-14 03:54
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 684 eyeofhorus33 03-Jun-14 22:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 694 Audrey 05-Jun-14 02:07
Re: The Ring of the gods 693 Thunderbird 04-Jun-14 15:55
Re: The Ring of the gods 645 Audrey 05-Jun-14 05:36
Re: Mystery of the Gods 675 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 01:39
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 695 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 10:33
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 637 Audrey 01-Jun-14 19:38
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 707 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 20:44
Arches and Chambers 581 loveritas 01-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Arches and Chambers 684 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:03
Definitely Puzzled 663 loveritas 02-Jun-14 11:30
Re: Definitely Puzzled 643 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 598 Audrey 03-Jun-14 01:38
Re: Definitely Puzzled 645 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 01:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 694 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:40
Re: Definitely Puzzled 684 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 11:21
Re: Definitely Puzzled 732 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:02
Re: Definitely Puzzled 693 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 13:34
Re: Definitely Puzzled 626 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:56
Re: Definitely Puzzled 645 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 14:03
How it really happened 1559 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:15
Re: How it really happened 735 Scott Creighton 03-Jun-14 17:25
Re: How it really happened 897 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 20:18
Re: Definitely Puzzled 663 Audrey 05-Jun-14 01:54
Re: Definitely Puzzled 667 Merrell 03-Jun-14 07:41
Re: Definitely Puzzled 633 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 10:32
Re: Definitely Puzzled 680 loveritas 03-Jun-14 11:12
Re: Definitely Puzzled 683 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 13:05
Re: Definitely Puzzled 653 loveritas 03-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Arches and Chambers 655 Merrell 02-Jun-14 11:36
Re: Arches and Chambers 665 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 16:40
Re: Arches and Chambers 626 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 18:02
Re: Arches and Chambers 697 Dr. Troglodyte 02-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Arches and Chambers 644 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 20:46
Re: Forced entry 630 Thunderbird 02-Jun-14 06:31
Going Inside The Pyramid 678 loveritas 02-Jun-14 12:07
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 641 Audrey 01-Jun-14 23:08
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 656 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:02
Medjedu 717 loveritas 04-Jun-14 11:39
Wilkinson? 650 Martin Stower 02-Jun-14 00:25
Re: The Mud Slinging Has Started 803 Martin Stower 31-May-14 12:44
Perring and Vyse 1029 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 00:33
Reference marks 689 Martin Stower 01-Jun-14 14:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 669 Brian Patterson 03-Jun-14 04:06
Mod Warning > Messrs. Creighton and Stower 613 Dr. Troglodyte 03-Jun-14 16:51
How it really happened 617 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 16:54
From caption to self-contradiction 671 Martin Stower 03-Jun-14 22:38
Why the drawings? 1172 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 22:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 688 DUNE 04-Jun-14 22:46
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 620 sfbey 04-Jun-14 23:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 784 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 08:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 704 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 09:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 771 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:08
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 689 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 10:59
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 668 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 605 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 669 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 683 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 598 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 701 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 612 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 688 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 664 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 630 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 13:49
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 593 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 726 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:12
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 659 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 605 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 637 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 626 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 612 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:52
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 731 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 683 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 558 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:38
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 628 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 693 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:56
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 605 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:02
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 685 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 618 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 644 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:27
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 662 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 652 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 631 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 17:55
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 694 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:16
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 618 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 605 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:23
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 651 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 674 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 17:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 631 cladking 05-Jun-14 16:11
Re: Ping for Audrey and Loveritas 611 Thunderbird 05-Jun-14 19:11
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 615 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 608 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:32
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 567 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:30
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 599 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 15:40
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 512 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 546 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 639 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:33
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 602 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 15:42
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 599 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 632 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 16:45
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 681 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:53
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 649 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 17:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 654 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 17:44
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 556 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:03
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 698 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:18
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 690 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:21
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 619 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 697 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:37
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 573 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 709 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 814 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 23:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 776 Martin Stower 06-Jun-14 11:44
Mod Warning #2 > Scott Creighton 635 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:51
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 604 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 20:22
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 581 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 18:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 572 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 18:19
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 641 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 627 Audrey 05-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 672 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:47
Mod Warning #3 > Ahatmose 642 lukehancock 06-Jun-14 14:50
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 643 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:06
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 587 Martin Stower 04-Jun-14 23:20
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 733 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 10:01
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 750 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 670 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 882 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 11:39
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 690 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 11:48
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 664 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 12:00
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 715 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 12:14
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 628 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 14:34
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 557 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 14:58
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 639 Ahatmose 05-Jun-14 16:10
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 600 Scott Creighton 05-Jun-14 16:13
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 624 eyeofhorus33 05-Jun-14 18:25
Re: Further comments on Creighton’s article 645 Martin Stower 05-Jun-14 21:17


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.