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hi Audrey

With regard to whether or not it may be wheat, I honestly don't know whether you just want to quibble: if I explain that the inscription supports the idea, you have made it clear in other posts that you question the reliability of 'translation' so do you want me to say yes in order that you can then question the reliability of the interpretation?

I don't want to engage in tit-for-tat or point scoring. I am happy to discuss with you my opinions - I am not so bold (or stupid) to make claims that my opinions are the right ones - but I don't wish to be demeaned in any way simply because I have a different viewpoint.

Might I sincerely suggest you consider learning to read Middle Egyptian and then you'll find out for yourself. It's a rewarding task and you clearly have a passionate interest in the history and ideas about the AE culture!

The 'w3s ankh' motif is associated variously with strength, success and life and is often a 'w3s djed ankh' motif, too. The 'w3s ankh' motif seems appropriate for a depiction of an agricultural cycle, relating to ideas of success in germination and life in the following season. The 'w3s ankh' motif can also be seen at the Ramasseum, the mortuary temple of Ramses II which interestingly has Osiride statues at its entrance. Here, I believe it to be associated with Ramses' success and power ('strength') as pharaoh. See here for the motif:

and here for the Osiride statues:

What is your 'interpretation' of the image depicting the mummified form of Osiris being watered, might I ask?

One of the reasons why I view it as a representation of seasonal renewal is the corroboration from other sources, like annual festivals where Osirian seed beds were filled with grain on the first day of the festival which coincided with the date of the annual planting of grain seeds. To my mind, this serves to strengthen the association of Osiris with the annual inundation and their agricultural cycle.

Cladking asked why the PT suggested that Egyptians were not to "tread" on the "oozing corpse" of Osiris, considering this "gobblety gook" as he so often does. I, on the other hand, interpret this to be an instruction not to tread the earth where crop seedlings may be growing as this could cause damage to the crop, failure in the harvest and, consequently, hunger for the masses.

I make no claims to being right, I'm simply sharing with you the way I piece the pieces of this puzzle together for myself.

Scott Creighton discusses it in a similar way here


and I find Scott's take on the 14 scattered pieces Of Osiris' body being represented by pyramids across Egypt quite intriguing. The PT is quite unequivocal about this:

"This king is Osiris, this pyramid of this king is Osiris, this construction of his is Osiris." (Pyramid Texts, 1657)

Your point about Plutarch's account of "Isis and Osiris" is correct in the sense that it was written during the first century AD. However, it is the earliest and only surviving, complete account of the myth in a language other than hieroglyphs which, admittedly, are still rightly disputed by academics and posters like Cladking, here on this forum. In the absence of anything else - and with Plutarch being two thousand years older than any Egyptologist - written during the Graeco-Roman period, it is arguably a more reliable source than any 19th, 20th or 21st century Egyptologist's 'interpretation' of the hieroglyphs and references to Osiris in the Pyramid Texts.

Lastly, without wishing to split hairs, the etymology of the word ritual is the Latinate 'ritualis' meaning "relating to rites." I acknowledged that "funerary rites, though variable, are part of the human condition." I agree that rituals are also, by extension, variable but the major and oldest world religions that I cited all practise prayer and believe in the idea of a soul transmigrating to either meet its maker or to begin afresh. I agree that funerary rites can be carried out without certain rituals but the ones I mentioned all share certain features.

As an atheist, it matters little to me and by citing a number of mono- and polytheistic world religions, I am certainly not projecting a familiarity with "Christian custom" onto others' rituals and rites.


EDITED: To amend typo errors, to 'tidy up' a sentence or two and to add images.

Post Edited (16-Jun-14 23:32)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1229 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 579 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 547 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 563 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 555 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 632 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 598 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 504 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 551 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 581 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 463 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 549 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 550 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 667 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 672 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 557 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 499 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 627 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 538 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 539 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 488 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 549 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 615 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 540 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 513 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 509 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 605 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 542 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 635 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 629 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 542 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 586 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 550 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 761 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 521 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 492 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 577 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 650 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 672 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 465 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 555 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 594 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 594 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 551 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 558 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 565 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 601 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 657 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 550 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 558 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 627 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 602 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 623 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 526 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 862 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 587 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 568 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 511 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 542 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 531 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 784 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 564 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 504 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 490 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 502 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 503 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 520 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 581 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 520 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 478 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 465 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 542 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 515 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 510 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 542 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 532 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 521 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 529 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 484 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 492 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 504 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 501 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 547 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 421 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 551 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 487 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 493 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 511 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 492 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 578 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 505 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 364 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 530 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 509 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 507 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 503 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 479 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 542 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 509 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 509 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 484 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 467 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 478 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 561 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 517 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 413 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 476 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 464 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 464 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 518 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 506 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 491 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 469 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 681 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 527 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 969 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 796 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 579 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 611 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 544 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 520 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 521 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 525 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 487 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 400 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 377 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 344 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 616 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 449 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 415 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 399 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 371 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 333 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 298 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 302 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 288 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 367 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 369 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 312 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 297 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 333 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 302 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 342 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 266 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 310 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 302 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 382 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 224 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 257 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 300 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 282 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 282 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 257 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 313 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 257 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 266 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 264 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 259 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 249 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 263 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 239 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 263 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 289 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 280 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 359 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 366 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 413 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 412 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 381 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 310 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 300 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 268 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 276 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 305 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 279 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 262 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 304 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 289 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 397 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 284 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 321 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 438 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 258 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 269 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 247 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 289 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 262 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 250 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

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