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hi Audrey

With regard to whether or not it may be wheat, I honestly don't know whether you just want to quibble: if I explain that the inscription supports the idea, you have made it clear in other posts that you question the reliability of 'translation' so do you want me to say yes in order that you can then question the reliability of the interpretation?

I don't want to engage in tit-for-tat or point scoring. I am happy to discuss with you my opinions - I am not so bold (or stupid) to make claims that my opinions are the right ones - but I don't wish to be demeaned in any way simply because I have a different viewpoint.

Might I sincerely suggest you consider learning to read Middle Egyptian and then you'll find out for yourself. It's a rewarding task and you clearly have a passionate interest in the history and ideas about the AE culture!

The 'w3s ankh' motif is associated variously with strength, success and life and is often a 'w3s djed ankh' motif, too. The 'w3s ankh' motif seems appropriate for a depiction of an agricultural cycle, relating to ideas of success in germination and life in the following season. The 'w3s ankh' motif can also be seen at the Ramasseum, the mortuary temple of Ramses II which interestingly has Osiride statues at its entrance. Here, I believe it to be associated with Ramses' success and power ('strength') as pharaoh. See here for the motif:

and here for the Osiride statues:

What is your 'interpretation' of the image depicting the mummified form of Osiris being watered, might I ask?

One of the reasons why I view it as a representation of seasonal renewal is the corroboration from other sources, like annual festivals where Osirian seed beds were filled with grain on the first day of the festival which coincided with the date of the annual planting of grain seeds. To my mind, this serves to strengthen the association of Osiris with the annual inundation and their agricultural cycle.

Cladking asked why the PT suggested that Egyptians were not to "tread" on the "oozing corpse" of Osiris, considering this "gobblety gook" as he so often does. I, on the other hand, interpret this to be an instruction not to tread the earth where crop seedlings may be growing as this could cause damage to the crop, failure in the harvest and, consequently, hunger for the masses.

I make no claims to being right, I'm simply sharing with you the way I piece the pieces of this puzzle together for myself.

Scott Creighton discusses it in a similar way here


and I find Scott's take on the 14 scattered pieces Of Osiris' body being represented by pyramids across Egypt quite intriguing. The PT is quite unequivocal about this:

"This king is Osiris, this pyramid of this king is Osiris, this construction of his is Osiris." (Pyramid Texts, 1657)

Your point about Plutarch's account of "Isis and Osiris" is correct in the sense that it was written during the first century AD. However, it is the earliest and only surviving, complete account of the myth in a language other than hieroglyphs which, admittedly, are still rightly disputed by academics and posters like Cladking, here on this forum. In the absence of anything else - and with Plutarch being two thousand years older than any Egyptologist - written during the Graeco-Roman period, it is arguably a more reliable source than any 19th, 20th or 21st century Egyptologist's 'interpretation' of the hieroglyphs and references to Osiris in the Pyramid Texts.

Lastly, without wishing to split hairs, the etymology of the word ritual is the Latinate 'ritualis' meaning "relating to rites." I acknowledged that "funerary rites, though variable, are part of the human condition." I agree that rituals are also, by extension, variable but the major and oldest world religions that I cited all practise prayer and believe in the idea of a soul transmigrating to either meet its maker or to begin afresh. I agree that funerary rites can be carried out without certain rituals but the ones I mentioned all share certain features.

As an atheist, it matters little to me and by citing a number of mono- and polytheistic world religions, I am certainly not projecting a familiarity with "Christian custom" onto others' rituals and rites.


EDITED: To amend typo errors, to 'tidy up' a sentence or two and to add images.

Post Edited (16-Jun-14 23:32)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1090 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 510 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 475 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 486 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 479 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 559 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 521 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 429 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 479 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 492 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 390 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 469 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 473 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 567 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 483 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 426 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 530 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 464 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 459 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 408 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 480 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 538 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 471 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 441 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 524 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 470 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 543 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 541 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 455 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 474 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 453 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 464 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 417 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 558 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 389 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 517 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 480 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 561 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 471 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 500 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 532 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 447 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 634 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 364 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 404 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 507 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 497 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 440 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 472 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 464 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 546 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 493 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 436 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 438 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 421 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 428 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 437 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 433 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 507 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 455 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 403 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 395 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 468 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 449 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 439 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 469 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 469 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 445 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 456 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 415 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 422 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 435 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 435 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 483 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 351 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 462 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 421 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 403 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 425 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 410 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 289 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 434 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 444 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 440 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 411 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 441 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 380 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 439 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 439 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 418 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 394 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 409 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 462 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 444 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 345 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 403 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 389 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 389 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 453 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 435 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 377 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 395 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 607 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 835 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 687 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 533 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 474 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 450 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 453 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 460 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 338 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 364 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 416 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 375 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 318 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 314 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 323 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 354 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 266 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 465 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 381 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 344 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 332 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 309 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 258 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 229 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 224 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 226 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 207 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 291 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 257 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 243 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 226 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 262 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 231 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 281 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 199 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 234 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 229 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 161 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 154 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 186 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 223 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 211 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 214 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 194 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 248 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 188 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 201 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 194 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 185 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 188 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 194 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 172 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 194 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 224 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 210 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 291 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 303 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 307 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 342 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 317 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 245 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 231 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 198 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 210 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 235 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 202 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 200 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 233 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 224 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 303 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 220 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 255 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 367 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 193 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 200 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 179 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 224 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 198 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 178 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

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