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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1079 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 503 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 469 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 477 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 472 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 553 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 515 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 424 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 472 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 485 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 381 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 460 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 465 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 471 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 559 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 476 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 419 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 521 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 457 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 452 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 400 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 473 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 529 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 464 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 431 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 434 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 518 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 463 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 536 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 533 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 448 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 402 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 409 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 552 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 570 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 382 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 508 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 510 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 472 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 388 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 484 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 505 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 473 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 553 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 464 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 523 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 401 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 440 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 628 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 359 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 501 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 435 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 466 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 538 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 487 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 431 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 433 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 418 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 422 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 432 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 427 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 503 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 450 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 398 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 388 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 464 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 445 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 433 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 463 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 465 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 440 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 451 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 412 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 417 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 431 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 430 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 479 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 345 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 458 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 414 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 398 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 390 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 422 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 501 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 284 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 427 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 440 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 435 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 405 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 436 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 376 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 435 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 413 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 390 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 404 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 456 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 440 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 338 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 397 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 384 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 383 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 446 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 429 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 373 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 389 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 593 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 431 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 819 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 681 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 508 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 401 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 412 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 430 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 470 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 446 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 450 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 455 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 333 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 359 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 364 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 429 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 370 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 312 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 310 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 319 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 348 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 261 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 388 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 459 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 375 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 340 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 383 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 328 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 304 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 253 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 225 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 218 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 220 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 203 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 284 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 253 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 239 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 221 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 259 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 227 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 277 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 195 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 230 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 225 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 157 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 148 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 182 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 217 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 207 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 211 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 190 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 240 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 185 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 197 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 190 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 180 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 183 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 188 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 167 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 189 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 218 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 205 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 270 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 275 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 300 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 336 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 311 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 240 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 228 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 205 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 230 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 197 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 195 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 227 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 219 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 298 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 213 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 250 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 361 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 188 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 195 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 174 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 220 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 194 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 174 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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