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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1088 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 508 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 473 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 484 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 478 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 558 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 519 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 428 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 491 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 387 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 466 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 471 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 477 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 566 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 482 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 425 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 528 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 463 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 458 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 405 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 535 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 469 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 437 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 522 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 469 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 540 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 540 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 454 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 473 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 448 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 415 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 557 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 574 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 515 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 480 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 511 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 559 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 500 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 530 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 433 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 631 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 402 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 439 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 470 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 542 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 434 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 437 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 420 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 427 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 435 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 431 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 455 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 453 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 401 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 392 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 466 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 448 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 438 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 467 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 468 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 443 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 454 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 414 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 420 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 433 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 433 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 481 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 349 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 460 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 418 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 402 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 377 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 424 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 408 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 286 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 465 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 431 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 443 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 438 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 409 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 439 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 437 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 417 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 407 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 460 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 443 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 342 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 401 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 387 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 388 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 451 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 433 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 376 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 604 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 455 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 828 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 686 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 444 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 405 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 531 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 414 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 473 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 448 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 443 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 452 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 458 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 368 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 389 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 312 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 321 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 264 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 463 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 379 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 342 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 330 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 307 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 256 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 228 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 222 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 224 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 206 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 289 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 256 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 242 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 224 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 261 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 230 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 279 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 197 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 232 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 228 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 160 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 152 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 184 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 220 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 210 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 213 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 246 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 187 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 199 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 182 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 186 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 171 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 222 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 209 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 284 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 297 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 305 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 341 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 316 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 243 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 230 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 195 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 209 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 234 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 201 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 198 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 231 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 222 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 302 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 218 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 253 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 365 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 191 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 198 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 178 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 222 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 196 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 176 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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