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Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,
Quote

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[www.rickrichards.com]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:

Quote

Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.



Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1173 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 552 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 520 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 536 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 527 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 605 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 567 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 475 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 521 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 548 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 433 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 517 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 519 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 559 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 628 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 527 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 470 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 597 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 510 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 506 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 459 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 522 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 588 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 513 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 485 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 483 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 574 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 513 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 601 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 582 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 506 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 558 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 451 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 520 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 461 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 548 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 606 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 639 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 436 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 523 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 566 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 566 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 491 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 525 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 538 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 570 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 520 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 626 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 521 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 524 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 564 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 548 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 514 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 549 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 574 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 488 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 515 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 719 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 553 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 538 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 480 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 511 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 502 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 640 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 535 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 477 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 475 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 460 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 470 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 478 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 474 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 552 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 493 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 438 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 436 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 502 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 487 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 480 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 513 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 487 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 501 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 457 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 463 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 473 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 474 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 521 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 393 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 502 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 460 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 464 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 413 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 483 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 551 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 476 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 332 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 476 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 479 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 476 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 451 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 513 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 479 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 480 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 457 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 437 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 450 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 505 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 486 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 386 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 445 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 432 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 434 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 489 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 477 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 420 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 439 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 650 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 501 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 920 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 754 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 552 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 570 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 513 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 491 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 481 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 494 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 497 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 402 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 457 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 358 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 348 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 364 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 396 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 313 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 510 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 419 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 385 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 372 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 345 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 304 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 307 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 269 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 268 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 256 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 335 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 302 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 285 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 267 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 303 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 270 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 314 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 235 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 279 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 271 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 279 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 195 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 226 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 268 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 253 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 255 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 229 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 286 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 229 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 237 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 236 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 229 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 223 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 235 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 211 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 234 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 261 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 250 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 329 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 340 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 344 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 383 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 353 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 283 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 269 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 238 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 247 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 275 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 247 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 234 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 275 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 263 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 367 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 258 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 293 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 409 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 231 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 241 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 219 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 261 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 235 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 223 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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