Mysteries :  The Official forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Hi "Dr Troglodyte",

I have read many times in your posts you use an awful lot of quotation marks around words that confuses the meaning of what you are trying to say sometimes. It implies you doubt the validity of the word's usage suggesting they are "so-called"....

“scientific means”, “quarry marks”, Dr. Robert M. Schoch, a “scientist”

Do you doubt these words are accurate?

“Campbell’s Chamber”, ”Khufu”, “marks”.

These all have a context as "so-called" so quotation marks would be appropriate.

Regarding your post,

Studying them closely, however, they looked authentically ancient to me. I could see later mineral crystals precipitated over them, a process that takes centuries or millennia, and the inscriptions continue under the overlying blocks.

Well, it has been over 150yrs since Vyse was there, pretty close to being "centuries", but this does leave one to wonder if whatever process that causes "mineral crystals to precipitate" might be accelerated by the micro-climate of these small chambers being in the heart of a 481ft pyramid in the middle of a desert. It would be interesting if Schoch made an analysis of the distribution of these crystals on the cartouche in question. It would stand to reason it would be uniform over both red ochre and exposed block, and if not, I assume this would mean something.

There is no doubt the quarry marks are genuine, the issue is the graffiti, particularly this one in question. Does it go under the other block or just terminate there?
Look here at Lady Arbuthnot's Chamber:[]. It is interesting to note that some of the cartouches, like the one in question, terminate at another block whereas several others are written right over one block to the next. This can only mean two things:1) some blocks had cartouches written on them at the quarry and some were written on the blocks in situ, or 2) they were all written on in situ and some were terminated at an adjoining inaccessible block while others in more open spaces continued over one block to the next. A 3rd possibility exists if we assume all were all were written at the quarry, the block was cut, then matched up perfectly during construction so that the ultimately meaningless cartouches perfectly lined up once again. This does not seem reasonable if even possible. Therefore, what we have is that during construction workers dropped in for the fun of it and scrawled graffiti on the blocks which makes the possibility these were terminated and not pre-existing writings partially obscured by another block during construction.

Personally, I am on the fence about the whole forgery issue as to me both sides make compelling arguments though when I look at the cartouche in question it does appear to me there was once a dot in the center that was later covered by the center of the 3 lines. Someone, it is possible, changed their mind as to what to put in the circle. Whether this was Vyse or an ancient repairman for me the jury is still out. If genuine, this does not provide provenance regardless nor can we be sure when they were written.

I think there is an underserved line of inquiry to be made regarding the greater issue that may prove equally if not more compelling. By my count there are 8 different cartouches and at least 13 inscriptions in just this one chamber. All told there are over a dozen cartouches and several more inscriptions between all the chambers. No one seems to be taking the bait here, but again, it stands to reason to me that if we really want to understand the provenance and possibly greater meaning of the Khufu cartouche(s) in question that an inventory of translations needs to be made of ALL the graffiti so that they can be put into a proper context. If anyone has this information I would ask to please post it as it would be enormously helpful to this discussion.

Also, you forgot to quote Schoch's conclusion regarding the graffiti:


Still, just what do genuine quarry marks and inscriptions on stones deep within the Great Pyramid actually tell us? The hieroglyphic cartouche for the name Khufu was a powerful charm that has been found on any number of tombs and monuments throughout Egypt, many of them accurately dated to after the 4th Dynasty. The cartouche was used as a holy symbol the same way the cross was inscribed here, there, and everywhere by Christians in later centuries. The inscriptions don't necessarily prove that Khufu built the Great Pyramid. They might only mean Khufu himself was named after the Great Pyramid, which perhaps existed well before he did.

Post Edited (16-May-13 21:58)

Options: ReplyQuote

Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1226 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 577 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 545 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 561 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 553 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 629 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 595 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 502 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 549 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 579 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 460 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 547 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 548 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 665 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 669 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 554 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 496 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 625 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 535 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 536 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 486 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 547 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 613 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 538 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 511 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 507 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 603 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 540 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 633 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 627 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 540 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 584 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 539 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 749 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 540 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 490 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 575 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 644 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 670 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 553 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 592 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 591 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 517 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 549 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 556 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 563 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 599 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 545 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 655 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 556 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 612 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 574 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 540 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 574 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 600 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 613 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 540 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 510 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 524 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 855 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 584 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 566 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 508 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 540 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 779 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 562 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 503 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 502 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 487 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 500 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 503 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 501 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 579 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 518 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 476 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 462 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 540 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 512 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 508 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 540 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 530 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 518 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 527 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 482 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 490 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 501 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 499 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 544 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 419 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 543 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 485 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 490 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 440 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 509 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 494 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 483 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 506 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 504 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 500 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 477 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 540 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 447 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 507 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 482 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 465 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 476 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 551 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 515 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 411 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 474 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 462 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 462 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 515 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 504 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 489 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 467 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 678 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 508 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 525 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 968 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 793 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 576 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 512 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 473 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 609 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 482 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 505 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 542 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 500 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 517 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 509 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 519 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 523 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 405 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 444 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 485 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 509 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 448 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 374 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 427 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 341 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 460 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 604 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 447 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 413 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 454 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 331 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 336 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 296 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 300 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 284 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 363 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 367 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 310 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 295 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 331 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 300 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 340 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 264 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 308 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 299 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 379 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 222 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 255 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 298 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 279 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 280 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 255 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 311 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 254 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 264 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 262 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 257 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 246 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 261 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 237 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 261 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 287 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 277 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 357 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 364 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 400 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 409 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 379 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 308 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 298 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 266 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 274 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 302 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 277 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 260 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 302 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 287 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 395 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 282 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 319 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 436 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 256 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 267 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 245 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 287 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 260 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 248 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.