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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.

Quote

SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.

Quote

CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.

SC



Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1135 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 537 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 502 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 512 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 508 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 586 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 549 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 456 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 504 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 523 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 416 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 499 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 498 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 506 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 599 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 510 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 454 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 578 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 489 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 488 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 437 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 507 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 569 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 494 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 465 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 464 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 551 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 495 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 576 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 566 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 483 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 538 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 495 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 522 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 443 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 587 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 613 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 418 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 498 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 542 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 544 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 472 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 422 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 519 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 600 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 501 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 507 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 549 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 529 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 497 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 526 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 556 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 434 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 460 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 476 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 668 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 391 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 535 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 520 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 460 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 493 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 592 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 520 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 460 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 461 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 443 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 450 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 459 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 455 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 531 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 477 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 423 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 416 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 485 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 471 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 462 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 495 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 489 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 467 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 483 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 439 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 445 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 459 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 455 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 505 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 373 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 482 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 443 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 443 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 398 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 469 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 450 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 447 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 530 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 313 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 456 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 464 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 461 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 433 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 488 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 404 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 460 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 460 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 440 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 417 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 431 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 486 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 467 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 366 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 428 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 413 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 416 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 473 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 460 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 398 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 417 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 633 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 484 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 885 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 726 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 535 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 428 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 555 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 441 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 494 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 460 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 473 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 476 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 481 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 361 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 383 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 395 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 461 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 421 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 399 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 339 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 334 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 347 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 291 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 417 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 493 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 402 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 366 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 411 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 354 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 331 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 283 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 269 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 253 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 249 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 234 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 313 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 283 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 270 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 248 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 286 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 253 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 301 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 220 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 260 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 250 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 227 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 177 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 208 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 251 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 235 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 236 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 215 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 268 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 209 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 222 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 218 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 210 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 206 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 216 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 217 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 244 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 233 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 314 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 325 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 330 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 367 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 339 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 265 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 252 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 219 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 230 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 255 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 223 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 219 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 257 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 245 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 327 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 242 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 278 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 384 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 217 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 219 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 202 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 247 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 219 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 198 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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