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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.

Quote

SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.

Quote

CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.

SC



Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1088 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 509 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 473 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 484 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 478 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 558 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 519 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 428 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 491 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 388 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 466 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 471 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 477 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 566 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 482 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 425 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 528 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 463 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 458 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 405 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 478 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 535 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 469 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 437 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 439 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 523 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 469 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 540 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 540 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 454 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 407 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 473 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 467 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 452 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 463 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 416 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 503 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 557 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 575 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 387 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 515 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 478 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 394 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 480 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 490 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 511 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 559 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 476 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 477 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 501 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 530 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 406 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 468 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 433 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 631 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 363 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 402 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 439 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 471 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 462 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 542 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 492 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 434 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 437 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 420 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 427 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 436 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 432 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 505 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 454 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 401 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 392 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 467 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 448 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 438 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 467 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 468 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 443 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 454 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 414 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 421 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 434 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 433 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 481 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 349 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 460 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 418 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 402 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 393 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 378 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 426 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 424 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 438 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 409 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 287 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 465 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 432 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 443 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 438 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 409 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 440 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 379 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 437 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 417 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 393 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 407 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 460 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 443 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 342 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 402 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 388 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 388 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 452 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 433 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 376 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 394 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 604 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 456 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 829 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 686 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 445 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 405 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 532 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 435 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 473 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 437 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 448 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 444 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 452 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 458 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 337 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 362 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 368 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 415 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 389 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 374 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 317 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 312 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 322 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 352 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 264 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 392 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 464 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 380 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 343 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 386 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 331 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 307 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 257 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 228 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 222 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 224 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 206 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 290 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 256 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 242 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 225 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 261 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 230 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 279 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 198 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 232 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 228 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 160 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 153 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 184 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 221 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 210 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 213 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 246 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 187 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 199 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 183 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 186 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 191 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 171 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 193 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 223 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 209 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 285 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 298 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 306 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 341 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 316 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 243 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 230 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 196 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 209 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 234 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 201 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 198 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 231 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 223 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 302 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 218 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 253 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 365 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 191 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 198 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 178 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 223 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 196 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 177 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53


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