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SC: What you are essentially saying here is that, in the case of Wilberforce, the end justified the means.

CM: No. I'm saying that, along with people like Wellington, Vyse and Trollope, all of whom made significant contributions to cultural and/or political life, Wilberforce parted with £8,000 in an effort to become an MP. People were so used to the system that they didn't even consider this bribery as such. They described them as 'the customary payments' - and some of the people who received these payments didn't even bother to vote.

SC: Do not kid yourself. These ‘customary payments’ were illegal and those who handed them out knew that. They also knew that if you got caught making electoral bribes, you could go to jail. Yes, it was a corrupt system. No one doubts that. But Howard-Vyse knew exactly what he was getting into. Tricky Dicky CHOSE to enter the corrupt electoral system in the full knowledge that to win the seat, he would have to fight dirty; he would have to buy votes; he would have to suspend his morality. It was a dirty place to be but he was more than willing to go there regardless of how corrupt a system it was. In short, Tricky Dicky was quite willing to act in a corrupt manner when ‘needs must’. Were he so principled he would have simply refused to enter into such a corrupt system.

And let us also not forget here that bribery was only one of the corrupt means employed by people such as Howard-Vyse. Elections at this time were not secret ballots. If a particular voter could not be ‘bought’ then other means were often employed – intimidation, violence or the threat of being evicted from their home or thrown out of their jobs. It takes a very particular type of person to go to such lengths – to do whatever it takes – to win the ballot. It may not have come to that in Howard-Vyse’s case but it COULD have and he would have known that beforehand; he would have known before standing that he would have to be prepared to stoop to such low means if that is what was needed in order to win. And he would have considered all of these potential difficulties and strong-arm tactics BEFORE standing. And still it did not deter him. A real wholesome, lovely man that Tricky Dicky.


SC: But it is the ‘means’ that is the issue here – not the end result. Both Howard-Vyse and Wilberforce demonstrated their ability to blatantly and ruthlessly disregard the law of the land in order to obtain something they coveted. It is their absolute willingness to fight dirty and their ability to suspend their morality in order to achieve their goal that is the issue here, for that is the flawed character trait they both possessed and just because they may then have gone on to do some good, does not mean that this flawed character trait has been expunged from them.

CM: You forgot to include Pitt, Wellington, and many other members of the establishment operating in the particular political and social context at that time. Not all of them, of course, were as concerned with matters of morality and religion as Vyse and Wilberforce.

SC: See above. They all knew the dirty game they were getting involved in BEFOREHAND and they all understood how dirty they might have to be, the lengths they might have to go to (bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job) in order to secure victory. Do not kid yourself otherwise.


CM: Vyse, not particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament, left after a couple of years, and later went on to discover ancient quarry marks in Khufu's pyramid.

SC:You're quite right - Howard-Vyse wasn't particularly concerned about how he got into Parliament and that lack of concern would manifest itself by him employing whatever means necessary to get himself there which often included bribery, intimidation, violence, threats of eviction from home and job. In short, Tricky Dicky suspended his morality in order to get into Parliament, to get what he coveted. That he has demonstrated his ability and willingness to do so once when 'needs must' then he most certainly could do so again whenever ‘needs must’. THAT is the point.


Post Edited (13-May-13 11:59)

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Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 1242 Dr. Troglodyte 10-May-13 20:14
William Wilberforce, crook 585 Martin Stower 11-May-13 12:17
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 553 Nejc 11-May-13 16:15
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 570 Merrell 11-May-13 18:36
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 560 Scott Creighton 12-May-13 11:27
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 637 Merrell 12-May-13 22:37
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 603 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 11:03
Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, excavator 510 Merrell 13-May-13 13:11
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 557 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 13:21
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 586 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:14
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 468 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:16
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 555 Merrell 14-May-13 09:41
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 557 Scott Creighton 14-May-13 09:47
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 674 Martin Stower 15-May-13 11:18
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 679 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 12:02
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 563 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:26
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 504 Scott Creighton 15-May-13 15:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 632 Martin Stower 16-May-13 09:55
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 543 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:04
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 545 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:34
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 494 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 10:43
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 554 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:00
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 620 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:09
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 546 Martin Stower 16-May-13 11:31
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 518 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 11:36
Re: Wilberforce, abolitionist; Vyse, 516 cladking 16-May-13 15:14
Re: What are they so afraid of? 610 Thunderbird 16-May-13 15:55
Re: What are they so afraid of? 549 cladking 16-May-13 21:40
Calling Dr. Schoch 642 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 16:04
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 636 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 16:26
Logbook doubts 547 Merrell 16-May-13 21:38
Re: Logbook doubts 591 Scott Creighton 16-May-13 22:46
Re: Logbook doubts 486 Merrell 16-May-13 23:25
Re: Logbook doubts 555 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 08:00
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Merrell 17-May-13 14:30
Re: Logbook doubts 776 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 14:56
Re: Logbook doubts 549 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:11
Re: Logbook doubts 528 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:53
Re: Logbook doubts 498 MJT 17-May-13 22:31
Re: Logbook doubts 583 Merrell 18-May-13 11:23
Re: Logbook doubts 656 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 12:10
Re: Logbook doubts 677 Martin Stower 20-May-13 17:54
Re: Logbook doubts 470 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 00:20
Re: Logbook doubts 562 Morten 21-May-13 09:03
Re: Logbook doubts 599 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:22
Re: Logbook doubts 600 Merrell 21-May-13 10:26
Re: Logbook doubts 526 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 10:35
Re: Logbook doubts 557 Merrell 21-May-13 13:46
Re: Logbook doubts 475 Morten 21-May-13 10:40
Re: Logbook doubts 564 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 11:04
Re: Logbook doubts 571 Morten 21-May-13 11:29
Re: Logbook doubts 606 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 12:04
Re: Logbook doubts 553 Morten 21-May-13 13:19
Re: Logbook doubts 662 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 13:33
Re: Logbook doubts 556 Merrell 21-May-13 14:16
Re: Logbook doubts 564 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:27
Re: Logbook doubts 672 Merrell 21-May-13 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 582 Morten 21-May-13 14:37
Re: Logbook doubts 548 Scott Creighton 21-May-13 14:54
Re: Logbook doubts 581 Morten 22-May-13 10:51
Re: Logbook doubts 608 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:13
Re: Logbook doubts 632 Audrey 22-May-13 02:20
Re: Logbook doubts 548 Morten 22-May-13 08:18
Re: Logbook doubts 517 Martin Stower 22-May-13 15:02
Re: Logbook doubts 532 Audrey 24-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 894 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:43
Re: Logbook doubts 442 Audrey 24-May-13 01:10
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 13:15
Re: Logbook doubts 592 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 18:17
Re: Logbook doubts 579 Scott Creighton 10-Jun-14 22:01
Re: Logbook doubts 514 eyeofhorus33 10-Jun-14 22:15
Re:Khufu....Hyksos? 546 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 01:36
Re: Logbook doubts 535 Audrey 11-Jun-14 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 830 eyeofhorus33 11-Jun-14 22:18
Re: Logbook doubts 568 Audrey 12-Jun-14 21:22
Re: Logbook doubts 509 eyeofhorus33 12-Jun-14 22:20
Re: Logbook doubts 507 cladking 13-Jun-14 00:24
Re: Logbook doubts 493 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 22:53
Re: Logbook doubts 505 cladking 13-Jun-14 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 509 eyeofhorus33 13-Jun-14 23:48
Re: Logbook doubts 506 cladking 14-Jun-14 00:17
Re: Logbook doubts 524 Audrey 14-Jun-14 02:17
Re: Logbook doubts 584 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 11:44
Re: Logbook doubts 523 cladking 14-Jun-14 15:25
context and customs 482 Audrey 14-Jun-14 19:25
Re: context and customs 468 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:23
Re: Logbook doubts 546 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 21:29
Re: Logbook doubts 518 cladking 14-Jun-14 22:07
Re: Logbook doubts 515 eyeofhorus33 14-Jun-14 23:04
Re: Logbook doubts 546 cladking 15-Jun-14 00:29
Re: Logbook doubts 536 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 18:35
Re: Logbook doubts 525 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:56
Re: Logbook doubts 533 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 21:26
Language doubts 487 cladking 15-Jun-14 21:48
Re: Language doubts 496 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 22:05
Re: Language doubts 507 cladking 15-Jun-14 22:51
Re: Language doubts 505 Audrey 16-Jun-14 04:17
Re: Language doubts 551 cladking 16-Jun-14 04:51
Re: Logbook doubts 425 cladking 12-Jun-14 22:57
Re:doubts 564 Thunderbird 11-Jun-14 23:36
Re:doubts 491 Audrey 12-Jun-14 19:54
Moderator Notice 496 Hoppy 22-May-13 01:32
Re: Logbook doubts 484 Audrey 22-May-13 02:52
Re: Logbook doubts 446 Martin Stower 18-May-13 13:37
Re: Logbook doubts 515 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 14:01
Re: Logbook doubts 499 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:52
Re: Logbook doubts 496 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:16
Re: Logbook doubts 582 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:57
Re: Logbook doubts 509 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:51
Re: Logbook doubts 489 Martin Stower 20-May-13 18:25
Re: Logbook doubts 369 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:49
Re: Logbook doubts 534 Martin Stower 21-May-13 15:42
Re: Logbook doubts 512 HungryHun 17-May-13 15:20
Re: Conspired.... 510 Thunderbird 17-May-13 15:47
Re: Conspired.... 506 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:04
Re: Conspired.... 482 Thunderbird 17-May-13 23:17
Re: Conspired....inspire d by money 545 Ratcho 03-Jun-13 05:57
Re: Logbook doubts 453 Martin Stower 17-May-13 16:23
Re: Logbook doubts 513 HungryHun 17-May-13 16:28
Re: Logbook doubts 513 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:25
Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 487 LonelyAngel 29-May-13 14:41
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 471 Nejc 29-May-13 23:23
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 482 Merrell 30-May-13 09:25
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 567 Martin Stower 30-May-13 12:48
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 521 WINDINWATERS 30-May-13 14:40
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 417 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:00
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 480 WINDINWATERS 31-May-13 21:47
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 468 LonelyAngel 30-May-13 17:43
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 468 Martin Stower 31-May-13 18:24
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 521 cladking 01-Jun-13 03:28
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 509 Merrell 01-Jun-13 11:02
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 495 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:59
Re: Would you buy a used cartouche from this man? 472 LonelyAngel 03-Jun-13 20:47
Re: Logbook doubts 684 Martin Stower 17-May-13 15:51
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Scott Creighton 17-May-13 20:27
Re: Logbook doubts 533 Nejc 17-May-13 22:28
Re: Logbook doubts 982 Martin Stower 18-May-13 14:43
Re: Logbook doubts 803 Scott Creighton 18-May-13 17:12
Re: Logbook doubts 583 Merrell 19-May-13 16:43
Re: Logbook doubts 518 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 09:38
Re: Logbook doubts 479 Merrell 20-May-13 13:29
Re: Logbook doubts 615 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 13:58
Re: Logbook doubts 489 Merrell 20-May-13 14:55
Re: Logbook doubts 510 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 18:46
Re: Logbook doubts 547 HungryHun 20-May-13 22:02
Re: Logbook doubts 506 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:05
Re: Logbook doubts 524 sfbey 20-May-13 23:23
Re: Logbook doubts 516 Thanos5150 20-May-13 23:35
Re: Logbook doubts 526 sfbey 21-May-13 15:41
Moghrah 528 Merrell 21-May-13 18:09
Re: Logbook doubts 412 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 23:38
Re: Logbook doubts 433 Merrell 21-May-13 21:34
Re: Logbook doubts 449 Audrey 22-May-13 02:34
Re: Logbook doubts 492 Merrell 21-May-13 21:58
Re: Logbook doubts 547 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 10:42
Re: Logbook doubts 471 Merrell 22-May-13 11:43
Re: Logbook doubts 454 Sirfiroth 22-May-13 17:44
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Nejc 22-May-13 23:18
Re: Logbook doubts 381 cladking 23-May-13 00:51
Re: Logbook doubts 397 Merrell 23-May-13 08:41
Re: Logbook doubts 432 Martin Stower 20-May-13 19:19
Re: Logbook doubts 347 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 19:35
Re: Logbook doubts 466 Martin Stower 21-May-13 17:59
Moderator Warning 662 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:12
Moderator Warning 453 JonnyMcA 21-May-13 20:11
Re: exercise elementary caution about sources 418 Thunderbird 20-May-13 19:36
Re: Logbook doubts 459 Audrey 22-May-13 02:50
Re: Logbook doubts 403 Merrell 22-May-13 12:53
Re: Logbook doubts 375 Audrey 24-May-13 01:48
Moderator Caution 338 Hoppy 22-May-13 12:55
Re: Logbook doubts 341 Martin Stower 22-May-13 16:06
Re: Logbook doubts 301 Audrey 24-May-13 01:41
Re: Logbook doubts 305 Martin Stower 24-May-13 13:56
Re: Logbook doubts 291 Thunderbird 17-May-13 22:40
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 370 Thanos5150 16-May-13 19:41
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 372 Dr. Troglodyte 16-May-13 21:56
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 315 Thanos5150 16-May-13 23:11
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 301 Dr. Troglodyte 17-May-13 00:01
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 337 Thanos5150 17-May-13 00:30
Re: Calling Dr. Schoch 305 cladking 16-May-13 21:50
Moderator Caution 346 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:09
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 270 Martin Stower 13-May-13 16:53
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 314 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 17:40
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 305 Martin Stower 13-May-13 18:32
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 385 Scott Creighton 13-May-13 19:23
Moderator Caution #2 229 Hoppy 15-May-13 14:18
Re: William Wilberforce, crook 261 Martin Stower 15-May-13 14:52
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 304 Nejc 11-May-13 13:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 285 JonnyMcA 11-May-13 18:41
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 287 Audrey 12-May-13 07:59
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 261 JonnyMcA 12-May-13 09:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 317 HungryHun 12-May-13 13:00
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 260 HungryHun 13-May-13 12:46
Re: Caviglia's complaint.... 269 Thunderbird 13-May-13 16:20
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 267 HungryHun 13-May-13 19:36
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 263 Martin Stower 15-May-13 15:04
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 252 HungryHun 16-May-13 10:03
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 266 Martin Stower 16-May-13 10:47
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 244 Merrell 16-May-13 16:33
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 267 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:02
Re: If fake, then... what? 293 MJT 16-May-13 12:45
More Vyse wickedness 283 Martin Stower 18-May-13 15:14
Re: More Vyse wickedness 362 Scott Creighton 19-May-13 09:01
Re: More Vyse wickedness 371 Martin Stower 20-May-13 16:44
Re: More Vyse wickedness 451 Scott Creighton 20-May-13 17:56
Re: More Vyse wickedness 416 jamesglory 21-May-13 10:26
Re: More Vyse wickedness 385 Audrey 22-May-13 02:42
Moderator Caution 313 Hoppy 20-May-13 17:57
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 304 Audrey 14-Jun-14 21:11
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 273 cladking 14-Jun-14 21:49
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 281 Scott Creighton 15-Jun-14 00:13
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 308 eyeofhorus33 15-Jun-14 00:58
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 283 cladking 15-Jun-14 01:12
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 269 Sirfiroth 15-Jun-14 19:09
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 309 cladking 15-Jun-14 20:40
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 293 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:32
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 401 eyeofhorus33 16-Jun-14 18:38
Re: Audrey - How to photoshop a cartouche a la Vyse 287 Audrey 23-Jun-14 03:15
Australian Funeral 325 molder 15-Jun-14 05:03
Re: Australian Funeral 443 Audrey 16-Jun-14 03:56
Re: Australian Funeral 262 molder 16-Jun-14 12:06
Re: Australian Funeral 273 cladking 16-Jun-14 16:50
Re: Australian Funeral 251 Audrey 23-Jun-14 01:58
Re: Australian Funeral 292 molder 19-Jun-14 07:25
Re: Australian Funeral 267 molder 20-Jun-14 10:28
Re: Australian Funeral/North American Funeral 255 molder 22-Jun-14 06:53

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