Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Poster Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi GramPong
>
> Not sure where you're coming from, or what's
> excited you of late, but I would say, Take a very
> deep breath when it comes to anything to do with
> Stichen.
> [www.sitchiniswrong.com]

Myself:

Quote

> It has been established that Sitchin could not
> actually read the texts that he claims to have
> translated.

No it has not. This says nothing about how well he could read them mind you, but all that has been "established" is that his translations, obviously, do not jibe with traditional interpretations of which Sitchin makes it abundantly clear are his alone. In the process, Sitchin has purportedly made several errors or taken undue poetic license with his translations in support of his overall claims. This may well be true, but keep in mind your parroted comments are derived almost exclusively from one Michael S Heiser who:
Quote

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.
Logos.

Can't imagine any bias there.

Interestingly, I have yet to find anywhere in Heiser's "debunking" of Sitchin's translations that he himself can read cuneiform, but rather relies on translations from the likes of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary and ESL among others. For example, his treatment of seal VA243; he does not translate what it says himself, but rather relies on other sources to tell him what it says:
Quote

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the
principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection,
Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton
Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:
Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful personc]
Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]
Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”d]

So Sitchin is "wrong" because of translations made by one Anton Moortgat in 1940?

In which he had to follow up further still with someone else: "In an email correspondence with Dr. Rudi Mayr, whose dissertation was on cylinder seals, Dr. Mayr commented on the inscriptions and the seal...".

All Heiser has done is research known translations, which he even tells you himself anyone can do, to tell you Sitchin is wrong which was kind of the point of Sitchin retranslating them in that he thought scholars got it wrong in the first place.

Heiser says: "I get asked all the time, “How do you know Sitchin is wrong about aliens in Sumerian tablets?". Which he answers:"Short answer: Because I get my information from the actual ancient scribes. Here's one example among many that could be offered.".

So by "actual ancient scribes" what he really means is other scholars who have translated it for him.

Regardless of the validity of Sitchin's translations or his ideas, I am amazed at how gullible some are to gobble up whatever Heiser says as gospel without ever getting to know who he really is beyond his credentials, what he is actually saying, and where he gets his information from. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as he is saying from a position of "authority" what some desperately want to hear.

Quote

Yes, many Sumerian-Akkadian lexical texts and word lists have been found, spanning more than 3,000yrs, but you do understand, I presume, these all had to be translated by modern scholars in the first place in which many words have been found to have several meanings of which not all scholars agree. These "dictionaries" you are referring to is what has been compiled by modern scholars of these translations, spanning this 3,000yr period, into a searchable form. This is not to defend Sitchin, which I am kind of sick of having to say, but the whole point of his "retranslating", right or wrong, is that he did not agree with some of these translations.

It is hardly the case to think uncovering the true meanings of these ancient words is just as simple as "looking it up in the dictionary". If one looks at even an English dictionary from the 1800's there are many words that have meaning today that it did not then and vise versa. Regarding one of the more contentious translations of Sitchin's, the word "Nephilim", if we want to know what it means then all we need to do is look it up in a dictionary right? It tells us it means:"Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood".

According to Sitchin, however:
“What then does the term Nefilim mean? Stemming from the Semitic root NFL (“to be cast down”), it means exactly what it says. It means those who were cast down upon the earth.”

And here is Heiser to tell you why Sitchin is wrong and that it can only mean "giants".

Well, I guess that's it then. Heiser and the dictionary agree.

But wait, here is Ronald S Hendel, Norma and Sam Dabby Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies, explaining why Heiser is wrong: Michael Heiser's (Mis)interpretation of "Nephilim" as "Giants" not "fallen Ones".

But how can this be if all one needs to do is "look it up in the dictionary"?

And if you actually read it, Hendel notes that Victor P. Hamilton, Professor of Old Testament and Theology at Asbury University from 1971 until 2007, translates Nephilim as...wait for it...:"‘those who were made to fall; those who were cast down’".

Sound familiar?

Some quotes from Hendel regarding Heiser's translations:

What you have written here and in your post helps me understand how you have come to your conclusion, which I continue to consider is unsound.

So your reliance on the Aramaic “meaning” of Nephilin faces what I consider is an insurmountable problem, and I hope I have made this problem clearer to you.
[Lol]

If you wish to continue to make an argument that the Aramaic meaning of the term “Nephilin” is “giants” and that this meaning influenced the Hebrew, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. But there is no evidence – is there?

Ouch.

Of course I hope none who read this are stupid enough to suggest I am implying either Hendel or Hamilton endorse Sitchin's ancient astronaut hypothesis, but I note this to illustrate the simple point these matters are not as simple as some would have others believe.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 1401 GramPong 15-Jul-19 21:31
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 283 Merrell 16-Jul-19 07:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 225 GramPong 16-Jul-19 11:02
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 207 Merrell 16-Jul-19 14:10
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 183 GramPong 16-Jul-19 15:25
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 187 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:08
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 172 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 182 PB Bytes 16-Jul-19 23:24
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 169 GramPong 16-Jul-19 23:43
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 158 Thanos5150 17-Jul-19 15:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 176 GramPong 17-Jul-19 15:56
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 173 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 23:32
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 154 GramPong 18-Jul-19 00:49
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 172 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 163 GramPong 18-Jul-19 12:55
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 147 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 16:47
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 177 GramPong 18-Jul-19 17:39
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 145 Susan Doris 19-Jul-19 05:06
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 173 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 145 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 173 PB Bytes 17-Jul-19 17:40
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 144 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:14
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 165 PB Bytes 18-Jul-19 15:11
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 164 Thanos5150 19-Jul-19 15:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 139 PB Bytes 19-Jul-19 15:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 168 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 01:23
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 147 PB Bytes 21-Jul-19 04:04
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 177 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:48
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 145 GramPong 17-Jul-19 08:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 247 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 08:51
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 181 GramPong 16-Jul-19 10:53
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 141 Barbelo 16-Jul-19 21:09
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 177 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 151 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:23
Immortality & Resurrection 178 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 00:17
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 154 GramPong 17-Jul-19 00:28
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 173 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 01:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 139 GramPong 17-Jul-19 02:13
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 150 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 03:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 167 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:58
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 174 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:44
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 145 GramPong 17-Jul-19 09:10
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 154 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:52
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 163 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:33
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 157 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 03:03
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 142 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:21
Barnhardt Klaatu Exchange 154 Dr. Troglodyte 17-Jul-19 13:00
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 180 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:56
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 174 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:35
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 210 Merrell 17-Jul-19 13:54
Stargate 164 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 22:23
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 182 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 02:34
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 174 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:18
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 188 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:02
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 142 GramPong 18-Jul-19 22:15
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 184 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 00:45
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 201 Martin Stower 19-Jul-19 20:48
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 151 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:38
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 161 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:35
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 154 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 00:49
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 176 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:30
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 135 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:03
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 172 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 04:49
Re: Stargate 189 Merrell 18-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Stargate 156 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Stargate 195 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:25
Re: Stargate 175 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:28
Re: Stargate 155 Merrell 19-Jul-19 21:52
Re: Stargate 198 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 15:32
Re: Stargate 160 Merrell 20-Jul-19 15:45
Re: Stargate 145 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Stargate 141 Aine 23-Jul-19 23:03
Re: Stargate 159 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 00:05
Re: Stargate 149 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 00:43
Re: Stargate 125 Aine 24-Jul-19 01:09
Re: Stargate 144 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 01:33
Re: Stargate 148 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 01:56
Re: Stargate 155 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 03:47
Re: Stargate 140 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 15:05
Re: Stargate 134 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 23:08
Re: Stargate 141 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:46
Mod Note > Duplicate Postings 124 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Jul-19 17:13
Re: Stargate 159 Merrell 21-Jul-19 12:34
Re: Stargate 155 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:40
Re: Stargate 140 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:56
Re: Stargate 174 jazzmumbles 22-Jul-19 01:04
Re: Stargate 155 Merrell 22-Jul-19 06:49
Re: Stargate 140 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 17:18
The EcuadorianToilet Float of the Gods 139 Merrell 22-Jul-19 19:47
debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 159 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 22:25
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 152 Merrell 24-Jul-19 12:43
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 147 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:36
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 141 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:31
And..... 140 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 22:19
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 129 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:29
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 134 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:43
Debunkatron 134 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 06:50
Re: Debunkatron 139 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 08:24
Re: Debunkatron 147 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 143 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:04
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 179 Aine 24-Jul-19 17:06
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 156 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:41
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 148 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:41
Agreed 138 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:24
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 140 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:32
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 134 GramPong 25-Jul-19 16:30
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 122 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:02
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 132 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 07:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 140 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:39
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 161 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:27
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 114 Aine 25-Jul-19 13:21
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 150 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:13
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 139 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 16:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 167 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 18:49
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 143 Thanos5150 26-Jul-19 15:15
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 145 Martin Stower 26-Jul-19 19:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 135 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:18
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 147 Aine 26-Jul-19 15:50
Re: Stargate 141 Aine 23-Jul-19 22:25
Re: Stargate 141 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 23:39
Re: Stargate 153 Aine 24-Jul-19 00:59
Re: Stargate 123 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 03:43
Re: Stargate 191 Aine 24-Jul-19 11:16
Re: Stargate 137 PB Bytes 24-Jul-19 23:18
Re: Stargate 143 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 00:25
Re: Stargate 110 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:04
Re: Stargate 125 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 20:48
Re: Stargate 151 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 22:32
Collateral damage 155 hendrik dirker 26-Jul-19 02:02
Re: Collateral damage 133 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Stargate 188 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 03:25
Re: mirage.. 120 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:55
Re: mirage.. 154 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 08:28
Re: Stargate 129 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 05:07
Re: Stargate 141 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 05:31
Re: Stargate 129 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 14:09
Re: Stargate 132 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:59
Re: Stargate 127 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:10
Re: Stargate 142 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 02:31
Re: Stargate 125 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Stargate 140 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 03:26
Re: Stargate 153 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:31
Re: Stargate 141 GramPong 25-Jul-19 11:57
Cloaking ? 113 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 21:35
Re: Stargate 161 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:32
Re: Stargate 131 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:58
Re: Stargate 154 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:24
Re: Stargate 162 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 15:13
"The Book Of The Damned" - A Debunker's Dream? 140 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 01:48
Re: Stargate 133 GramPong 19-Jul-19 23:33
The Emerald Tablets 155 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:19
Re: The Emerald Tablets 155 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:53
Re: The Emerald Tablets 147 Merrell 20-Jul-19 09:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 155 GramPong 20-Jul-19 15:03
Re: The Emerald Tablets 133 cladking 20-Jul-19 22:12
Re: The Emerald Tablets 160 Merrell 20-Jul-19 12:39
Re: The Emerald Tablets 152 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 21:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 186 Merrell 20-Jul-19 22:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 136 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 22:34
Re: The Emerald Tablets 143 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:41
Re: The Emerald Tablets 158 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 01:01
Re: The Emerald Tablets 140 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 128 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:27
Re: Stargate 126 GramPong 19-Jul-19 22:15
Re: Stargate 144 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 23:02
Re: Stargate 144 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:01
Re: Stargate 145 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:21
Re: Stargate 162 Merrell 20-Jul-19 08:45
Re: Stargate 200 Martin Stower 18-Jul-19 22:26
Re: Stargate 175 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 224 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 21:34
Trey Smith 152 GramPong 24-Jul-19 19:56
Re: Trey Smith 168 Lee McGiffen 26-Jul-19 03:09
Re: Trey Smith 158 GramPong 26-Jul-19 10:44
Mod Warning > General > Topic Closed 218 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Jul-19 20:04


Sorry, you can't reply to this topic. It has been closed.