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Poster Boy Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi GramPong
>
> Not sure where you're coming from, or what's
> excited you of late, but I would say, Take a very
> deep breath when it comes to anything to do with
> Stichen.
> [www.sitchiniswrong.com]

Myself:

Quote

> It has been established that Sitchin could not
> actually read the texts that he claims to have
> translated.

No it has not. This says nothing about how well he could read them mind you, but all that has been "established" is that his translations, obviously, do not jibe with traditional interpretations of which Sitchin makes it abundantly clear are his alone. In the process, Sitchin has purportedly made several errors or taken undue poetic license with his translations in support of his overall claims. This may well be true, but keep in mind your parroted comments are derived almost exclusively from one Michael S Heiser who:
Quote

Mike has an active ministry to people whose worldview is molded by occult, paranormal, and esoteric beliefs. He observed that many who have adopted “alternative” worldviews were formerly traditional theists and Christians who left the faith when their questions on difficult passages and topics went unanswered, or when spiritual leaders failed to address experiences they had had. Mike seeks to fill these gaps as a Christian scholar and has become well known in these circles through writing, speaking, and numerous radio appearances.
Logos.

Can't imagine any bias there.

Interestingly, I have yet to find anywhere in Heiser's "debunking" of Sitchin's translations that he himself can read cuneiform, but rather relies on translations from the likes of the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary and ESL among others. For example, his treatment of seal VA243; he does not translate what it says himself, but rather relies on other sources to tell him what it says:
Quote

The seal is transliterated (the Sumero-Akkadian signs in English letters) and translated in the
principal publication of the Berlin Vorderasiatische Museum’s publication of its seal collection,
Vorderasiatische Rollsiegel (“West Asian Cylinder Seals”; 1940) by Mesopotamian scholar Anton
Moortgat on page 101. This book is in German, so I offer the German and an English translation:
Line 1 = dub-si-ga “Dubsiga” [a personal name of an apparently powerful personc]
Line 2 = ili-il-la-at “Ili-illat” [another personal name, this time of the seal’s owner]
Line 3 = ir3-su “dein Knecht” [German for “your servant”d]

So Sitchin is "wrong" because of translations made by one Anton Moortgat in 1940?

In which he had to follow up further still with someone else: "In an email correspondence with Dr. Rudi Mayr, whose dissertation was on cylinder seals, Dr. Mayr commented on the inscriptions and the seal...".

All Heiser has done is research known translations, which he even tells you himself anyone can do, to tell you Sitchin is wrong which was kind of the point of Sitchin retranslating them in that he thought scholars got it wrong in the first place.

Heiser says: "I get asked all the time, “How do you know Sitchin is wrong about aliens in Sumerian tablets?". Which he answers:"Short answer: Because I get my information from the actual ancient scribes. Here's one example among many that could be offered.".

So by "actual ancient scribes" what he really means is other scholars who have translated it for him.

Regardless of the validity of Sitchin's translations or his ideas, I am amazed at how gullible some are to gobble up whatever Heiser says as gospel without ever getting to know who he really is beyond his credentials, what he is actually saying, and where he gets his information from. I suppose it doesn't matter as long as he is saying from a position of "authority" what some desperately want to hear.

Quote

Yes, many Sumerian-Akkadian lexical texts and word lists have been found, spanning more than 3,000yrs, but you do understand, I presume, these all had to be translated by modern scholars in the first place in which many words have been found to have several meanings of which not all scholars agree. These "dictionaries" you are referring to is what has been compiled by modern scholars of these translations, spanning this 3,000yr period, into a searchable form. This is not to defend Sitchin, which I am kind of sick of having to say, but the whole point of his "retranslating", right or wrong, is that he did not agree with some of these translations.

It is hardly the case to think uncovering the true meanings of these ancient words is just as simple as "looking it up in the dictionary". If one looks at even an English dictionary from the 1800's there are many words that have meaning today that it did not then and vise versa. Regarding one of the more contentious translations of Sitchin's, the word "Nephilim", if we want to know what it means then all we need to do is look it up in a dictionary right? It tells us it means:"Nephilim: "giants," name of two peoples, one before the flood and one after the flood".

According to Sitchin, however:
“What then does the term Nefilim mean? Stemming from the Semitic root NFL (“to be cast down”), it means exactly what it says. It means those who were cast down upon the earth.”

And here is Heiser to tell you why Sitchin is wrong and that it can only mean "giants".

Well, I guess that's it then. Heiser and the dictionary agree.

But wait, here is Ronald S Hendel, Norma and Sam Dabby Professor of Hebrew Bible and Jewish Studies at the University of California, Berkeley, Dept. of Near Eastern Studies, explaining why Heiser is wrong: Michael Heiser's (Mis)interpretation of "Nephilim" as "Giants" not "fallen Ones".

But how can this be if all one needs to do is "look it up in the dictionary"?

And if you actually read it, Hendel notes that Victor P. Hamilton, Professor of Old Testament and Theology at Asbury University from 1971 until 2007, translates Nephilim as...wait for it...:"‘those who were made to fall; those who were cast down’".

Sound familiar?

Some quotes from Hendel regarding Heiser's translations:

What you have written here and in your post helps me understand how you have come to your conclusion, which I continue to consider is unsound.

So your reliance on the Aramaic “meaning” of Nephilin faces what I consider is an insurmountable problem, and I hope I have made this problem clearer to you.
[Lol]

If you wish to continue to make an argument that the Aramaic meaning of the term “Nephilin” is “giants” and that this meaning influenced the Hebrew, the onus is on you to provide the evidence. But there is no evidence – is there?

Ouch.

Of course I hope none who read this are stupid enough to suggest I am implying either Hendel or Hamilton endorse Sitchin's ancient astronaut hypothesis, but I note this to illustrate the simple point these matters are not as simple as some would have others believe.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 1431 GramPong 15-Jul-19 21:31
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 302 Merrell 16-Jul-19 07:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 236 GramPong 16-Jul-19 11:02
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 220 Merrell 16-Jul-19 14:10
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 194 GramPong 16-Jul-19 15:25
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 198 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:08
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 185 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 196 PB Bytes 16-Jul-19 23:24
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 181 GramPong 16-Jul-19 23:43
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 174 Thanos5150 17-Jul-19 15:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 190 GramPong 17-Jul-19 15:56
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 186 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 23:32
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 165 GramPong 18-Jul-19 00:49
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 183 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 175 GramPong 18-Jul-19 12:55
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 163 Corpuscles 18-Jul-19 16:47
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 190 GramPong 18-Jul-19 17:39
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 159 Susan Doris 19-Jul-19 05:06
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 186 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 161 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:15
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 184 PB Bytes 17-Jul-19 17:40
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 158 Thanos5150 18-Jul-19 03:14
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 176 PB Bytes 18-Jul-19 15:11
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 177 Thanos5150 19-Jul-19 15:36
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 151 PB Bytes 19-Jul-19 15:54
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 183 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 01:23
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 159 PB Bytes 21-Jul-19 04:04
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 190 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:48
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Anunnaki 158 GramPong 17-Jul-19 08:44
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 264 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 08:51
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 193 GramPong 16-Jul-19 10:53
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 155 Barbelo 16-Jul-19 21:09
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 189 Martin Stower 16-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 163 GramPong 16-Jul-19 22:23
Immortality & Resurrection 190 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 00:17
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 169 GramPong 17-Jul-19 00:28
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 185 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 01:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 152 GramPong 17-Jul-19 02:13
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 163 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 03:37
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 182 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:58
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 187 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 07:44
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 155 GramPong 17-Jul-19 09:10
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 169 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:52
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 174 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:33
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 173 Corpuscles 17-Jul-19 03:03
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 154 GramPong 17-Jul-19 03:21
Barnhardt Klaatu Exchange 169 Dr. Troglodyte 17-Jul-19 13:00
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 195 Merrell 17-Jul-19 07:56
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 188 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 11:35
Re: Immortality & Resurrection 226 Merrell 17-Jul-19 13:54
Stargate 174 Barbelo 17-Jul-19 22:23
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 195 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 02:34
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 186 GramPong 18-Jul-19 13:18
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 205 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:02
Re: Stargate: Forgettable & Regrettable 154 GramPong 18-Jul-19 22:15
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 198 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 00:45
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 212 Martin Stower 19-Jul-19 20:48
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 162 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:38
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 173 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:35
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 166 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 00:49
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 185 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:30
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 148 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:03
Re: A Stargate: Is It Real? 184 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 04:49
Re: Stargate 204 Merrell 18-Jul-19 08:05
Re: Stargate 173 Barbelo 18-Jul-19 22:10
Re: Stargate 209 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:25
Re: Stargate 190 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 21:28
Re: Stargate 173 Merrell 19-Jul-19 21:52
Re: Stargate 212 Thanos5150 20-Jul-19 15:32
Re: Stargate 174 Merrell 20-Jul-19 15:45
Re: Stargate 159 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:30
Re: Stargate 155 Aine 23-Jul-19 23:03
Re: Stargate 173 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 00:05
Re: Stargate 164 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 00:43
Re: Stargate 138 Aine 24-Jul-19 01:09
Re: Stargate 157 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 01:33
Re: Stargate 163 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 01:56
Re: Stargate 166 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 03:47
Re: Stargate 155 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 15:05
Re: Stargate 147 Corpuscles 24-Jul-19 23:08
Re: Stargate 158 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:46
Mod Note > Duplicate Postings 137 Dr. Troglodyte 25-Jul-19 17:13
Re: Stargate 175 Merrell 21-Jul-19 12:34
Re: Stargate 167 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:40
Re: Stargate 155 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 21:56
Re: Stargate 189 jazzmumbles 22-Jul-19 01:04
Re: Stargate 170 Merrell 22-Jul-19 06:49
Re: Stargate 153 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 17:18
The EcuadorianToilet Float of the Gods 153 Merrell 22-Jul-19 19:47
debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 174 drrayeye 22-Jul-19 22:25
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 167 Merrell 24-Jul-19 12:43
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 156 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:36
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 154 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:31
And..... 154 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 22:19
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 143 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 14:29
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 145 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:43
Debunkatron 148 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 06:50
Re: Debunkatron 153 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 08:24
Re: Debunkatron 158 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 157 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:04
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 193 Aine 24-Jul-19 17:06
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 169 Merrell 25-Jul-19 06:41
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 159 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:41
Agreed 149 drrayeye 25-Jul-19 13:24
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 152 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:32
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 145 GramPong 25-Jul-19 16:30
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 135 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:02
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 142 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 07:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 154 Aine 25-Jul-19 10:39
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 173 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:27
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 126 Aine 25-Jul-19 13:21
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 165 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 15:13
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 155 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 16:28
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 180 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 18:49
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 157 Thanos5150 26-Jul-19 15:15
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 161 Martin Stower 26-Jul-19 19:16
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 147 Aine 26-Jul-19 16:18
Re: debunking vs. disproving, and . . . 159 Aine 26-Jul-19 15:50
Re: Stargate 155 Aine 23-Jul-19 22:25
Re: Stargate 155 Thanos5150 23-Jul-19 23:39
Re: Stargate 168 Aine 24-Jul-19 00:59
Re: Stargate 137 Thanos5150 24-Jul-19 03:43
Re: Stargate 208 Aine 24-Jul-19 11:16
Re: Stargate 149 PB Bytes 24-Jul-19 23:18
Re: Stargate 153 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 00:25
Re: Stargate 124 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:04
Re: Stargate 137 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 20:48
Re: Stargate 161 Corpuscles 25-Jul-19 22:32
Collateral damage 171 hendrik dirker 26-Jul-19 02:02
Re: Collateral damage 146 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 03:36
Re: Stargate 202 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 03:25
Re: mirage.. 132 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:55
Re: mirage.. 169 R Avry Wilson 26-Jul-19 08:28
Re: Stargate 141 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 05:07
Re: Stargate 153 Corpuscles 26-Jul-19 05:31
Re: Stargate 141 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 14:09
Re: Stargate 144 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 01:59
Re: Stargate 140 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:10
Re: Stargate 155 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 02:31
Re: Stargate 140 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 02:54
Re: Stargate 155 Thanos5150 25-Jul-19 03:26
Re: Stargate 165 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 03:31
Re: Stargate 154 GramPong 25-Jul-19 11:57
Cloaking ? 124 PB Bytes 25-Jul-19 21:35
Re: Stargate 176 Martin Stower 25-Jul-19 11:32
Re: Stargate 143 PB Bytes 26-Jul-19 04:58
Re: Stargate 169 Martin Stower 24-Jul-19 13:24
Re: Stargate 174 drrayeye 24-Jul-19 15:13
"The Book Of The Damned" - A Debunker's Dream? 155 Barbelo 24-Jul-19 01:48
Re: Stargate 146 GramPong 19-Jul-19 23:33
The Emerald Tablets 168 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:19
Re: The Emerald Tablets 167 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:53
Re: The Emerald Tablets 172 Merrell 20-Jul-19 09:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 169 GramPong 20-Jul-19 15:03
Re: The Emerald Tablets 145 cladking 20-Jul-19 22:12
Re: The Emerald Tablets 174 Merrell 20-Jul-19 12:39
Re: The Emerald Tablets 166 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 21:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 201 Merrell 20-Jul-19 22:04
Re: The Emerald Tablets 147 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 22:34
Re: The Emerald Tablets 158 Martin Stower 20-Jul-19 22:41
Re: The Emerald Tablets 172 Barbelo 21-Jul-19 01:01
Re: The Emerald Tablets 152 Martin Stower 22-Jul-19 15:28
Re: The Emerald Tablets 140 Barbelo 22-Jul-19 21:27
Re: Stargate 138 GramPong 19-Jul-19 22:15
Re: Stargate 157 Barbelo 19-Jul-19 23:02
Re: Stargate 163 GramPong 20-Jul-19 02:01
Re: Stargate 158 Barbelo 20-Jul-19 02:21
Re: Stargate 174 Merrell 20-Jul-19 08:45
Re: Stargate 211 Martin Stower 18-Jul-19 22:26
Re: Stargate 186 Merrell 19-Jul-19 11:46
Re: Ancient History Examination 1: Annunaki 236 Martin Stower 17-Jul-19 21:34
Trey Smith 168 GramPong 24-Jul-19 19:56
Re: Trey Smith 180 Lee McGiffen 26-Jul-19 03:09
Re: Trey Smith 169 GramPong 26-Jul-19 10:44
Mod Warning > General > Topic Closed 232 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Jul-19 20:04


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