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MDaines Wrote:
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> Thanos, you are the one who began the quibbling
> here,

In response to this from you:
Quote

But we know that there are ancient accounts of a connection between Harran and Egypt, through Hermes who is understood to be Thoth and the prophet of the Sabians. The Sabians were scattered at some point and no doubt their writings with them. Who knows where they originated?


What I "began" with:
Quote

These connections are nearly 2,000yrs or more after the fact and have no relevance to Egyptian history prior to these times. The relationship with Harran, for example, was established in the 7th century BC when the Assyrians invaded and conquered Egypt. Harran itself was not even founded until the end of the 3rd millennium. The poorly documented Sabians, mostly from less than credible Arab accounts, are from AD times and the connection they have with Egypt is only by way of their alleged belief in some form of Hermeticism. The connection between Hermes and Thoth was made in the Ptolemaic Period and one imposed by the Greeks with no historical relevance prior to its invention.

I did not realize noting a nearly 3,000yr gap between the Sabians and the 4th Dynasty was considered "quibbling".

The "quibbling" actually started with you regarding my comment the city of Harran was not founded until the end of the 3rd millennium:
Quote

The founding of Harran at the end of the 3rd millennium? Do you know of a text that establishes plainly that Harran did not exist earlier than that? Of course, there is the mention of Harran in Genesis, not that it helps with a timeframe. There is a town not too far away from Harran, ancient Edessa now called Sanliurfa, that has some rather lovely gardens and an ongoing tradition concerning Abraham. Apparently, it was on a par with Harran for its teachings at one time – Arabian source in AD, of course.

The Syrian Ebla tablets gave Harran as ‘a crossroads for trade in the Middle East’ at around 2300 BC. It would have been active well before that if it was already known far and wide as a crossroads. In fact, its very position along with this description would no doubt mean that Harran was in full contact with Egypt in the 3rd millennium, if not before.

> also the one who backpedalled on your very
> blunt statement of fact – yes, that is the term
> for it.

Which obviously your continued accusal of some kind of inequity on my part is nothing more than an emotional one for no other reason than it contradicts your beliefs, none of which having to do with the actual facts, my own actions least among them.

Prior to the Ebla tablets the oldest reference to Harran was c.2000BC and the city was believed to have been founded towards the end of the 3rd millennium which would be sometime between 2300-2000BC. Obviously, in context of the noted text, it stands to reason this would have occurred at least a few centuries before meaning sometime c.2300-2200BC. This should not be that hard for you to comprehend.

The Ebla tablets were discovered in the 1970's and translations offered in the decades that followed. The texts that mention Harran are dated to the last few generations before Ebla was sacked which is most commonly dated by way of the Near East "Middle chronology" of 2334-2154BC corresponding to the Akkadian Empire The "c.2300BC" is just a placeholder date rounded up for convenience with the more common date used c.2250BC which itself is rounded up from the average of the high and low of these dates which would be 2244BC. This is but one chronology used. The Low chronology is 2270-2083BC which would date these tablets on average to c.2177BC. If the Ultra-low chronology is used the average is then 2109BC. So while you are clinging to a date of "c.2300BC" it is actually c.2244BC and is only worse if other chronologies are used being c.2177BC and c.2109BC respectively.

Middle chronology is derived from fixing the two dates of the reign of Hammurabi (by way of Ammisaduqa), 1792-1750BC, and the sack of Babylon to 1595BC. The reign of Hammurabi, for example, is derived from highly contested interpretations of the the "Venus Tablet" which vary more than 200yrs where some suggest it is bunk in the first place. To make matters worse, the Venus Tablet dates to the 8th century BC and is said to be copies from earlier documents from the reign of Ammisaduqa, the 4th ruler after Hammurabi. Physicist Wayne Mitchel, for example, provides a "Venus Solution" which redates Ammisaduga's rule to 1419BC meaning Hammurabi would have first ruled c.1565BC, over 200yrs later than the accepted Middle chronology date. Meaning, this would also pull the Ebla tablets forward in time by over 200yrs as well, i.e the Ultra low chronology of c.2109BC. Oops. .

And apparently you missed the part where I said the archaeology of Harran has not yielded results prior to the first half of the 3rd millennium which would mean before c.2500BC. Hence why I am willing to revise my statement by a few centuries. And what has been found, the first remains of the city, could just as easily be at any point in the latter half including 2300BC or later. The urban expansion of the period is generally dated to c. 2600-2400BC which by all accounts the founding of the city of Harran was a part of so I defer to the greater context of the archaeology.


[snip]

Blech. No thanks.



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 07-Mar-19 04:49 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 3820 MDaines 22-Feb-19 09:52
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 678 Thanos5150 22-Feb-19 16:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 520 MDaines 23-Feb-19 18:01
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 514 Thanos5150 24-Feb-19 03:06
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 483 Eddie Larry 22-Feb-19 18:39
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 520 cladking 22-Feb-19 20:12
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 498 MDaines 23-Feb-19 07:40
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 439 cladking 23-Feb-19 14:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 461 MDaines 23-Feb-19 15:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 389 cladking 02-Mar-19 16:31
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 429 Eddie Larry 23-Feb-19 16:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 431 Spiros 25-Feb-19 00:41
On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 509 MDaines 25-Feb-19 14:49
Re: On the subject of Zechariah Sitchin 399 Spiros 04-Mar-19 01:11
The Exalted Sumero-Greek EN 413 MDaines 04-Mar-19 18:24
A Big Ask 486 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 01:27
Re: A Big Ask 399 MDaines 26-Feb-19 14:25
Re: A Big Ask 500 Dr. Troglodyte 26-Feb-19 17:14
Re: A Big Ask 385 MDaines 26-Feb-19 19:30
Re: A Big Ask 390 Barbelo 26-Feb-19 20:23
Re: A Big Ask 404 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:13
Re: A Big Ask 339 Barbelo 27-Feb-19 20:28
Re: A Big Ask 352 MDaines 28-Feb-19 14:05
Re: A Big Ask 377 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 19:59
Re: A Big Ask 419 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 00:46
Re: A Big Ask 387 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 01:19
Re: A Big Ask 428 Thanos5150 01-Mar-19 05:20
Re: A Weird Ask 427 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 11:13
Re: A Weird Ask 450 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 05:12
Re: A Weird Ask 528 Barbelo 02-Mar-19 07:06
Re: A Big Ask 377 MDaines 01-Mar-19 18:35
Re: A Big Ask 371 Barbelo 01-Mar-19 21:42
Re: A Big Ask 405 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 03:33
Re: A Big Ask 381 Thanos5150 28-Feb-19 17:11
Re: A Big Ask 378 MDaines 28-Feb-19 18:08
Heliopolis 488 Barbelo 28-Feb-19 20:18
Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 467 Dr. Troglodyte 04-Mar-19 23:56
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 415 MDaines 10-Mar-19 14:41
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 400 Dr. Troglodyte 12-Mar-19 00:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 359 MDaines 15-Mar-19 07:17
Re: Midpoint Sunrise-Sunset 459 Dr. Troglodyte 15-Mar-19 16:41
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 432 molder 26-Feb-19 21:23
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 420 MDaines 27-Feb-19 12:06
Three Wise Men 418 MDaines 02-Mar-19 15:31
Re: Three Wise Men 386 Thanos5150 02-Mar-19 17:05
Harran and the Sabians 482 MDaines 03-Mar-19 08:33
Re: Harran and the Sabians 538 Thanos5150 03-Mar-19 16:40
Re: Harran and the Sabians 410 MDaines 03-Mar-19 19:24
Re: Harran and the Sabians 380 Thanos5150 06-Mar-19 01:50
Re: Harran and the Sabians 356 MDaines 06-Mar-19 08:22
Re: Harran and the Sabians 353 Thanos5150 07-Mar-19 02:09
Re: Harran and the Sabians 382 MDaines 07-Mar-19 08:20
On the subject of Ebla and the Feather of Truth 376 MDaines 08-Mar-19 08:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 438 Broker 14-Mar-19 03:25
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 352 MDaines 17-Mar-19 09:11
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 369 SandyJesse 18-Apr-19 04:33
Celestial navigation and the ship 353 MDaines 23-Apr-19 07:21
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 357 SandyJesse 25-Apr-19 01:50
Re: Celestial navigation and the ship 373 SandyJesse 30-Apr-19 05:16
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 338 seasmith 03-May-19 22:24
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 311 MDaines 04-May-19 08:28
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 394 seasmith 05-May-19 01:39
BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 384 MDaines 09-May-19 09:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 361 SandyJesse 12-May-19 09:58
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 310 MDaines 12-May-19 10:22
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 310 SandyJesse 14-May-19 05:21
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 285 MDaines 14-May-19 07:46
Re: BEFORE BABEL The Crystal Tongue 315 SandyJesse 16-May-19 03:19
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 282 drew 15-May-19 01:21
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 267 Barbelo 15-May-19 10:48
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 317 drew 15-May-19 23:59
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 276 Barbelo 16-May-19 01:45
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 251 drew 18-Jun-19 02:15
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 249 Barbelo 18-Jun-19 02:43
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 299 hendrik dirker 18-Jun-19 06:59
movement of Sun along horizon 252 hendrik dirker 19-Jun-19 16:23
Solstice & the epoch1250 BC 484 hendrik dirker 20-Jun-19 07:02
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 272 MDaines 15-May-19 11:00
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 324 Horatech 15-May-19 12:10
To Easter Island? 288 MDaines 15-May-19 18:10
Re: To Easter Island? 305 Horatech 16-May-19 06:56
Re: To Easter Island? 305 Horatech 16-May-19 23:48
Re: To Easter Island? 347 Horatech 17-May-19 06:25
Re: To Easter Island? 269 Barbelo 17-May-19 10:53
Re: To Easter Island? 295 MDaines 17-May-19 11:41
What A Shame 287 Barbelo 17-May-19 21:14
Re: What A Shame 298 MDaines 18-May-19 07:57
Great Circles and Small Circles 578 Dr. Troglodyte 18-May-19 17:34
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 320 MDaines 18-May-19 19:09
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 286 Dr. Troglodyte 19-May-19 17:07
Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 328 MDaines 19-May-19 18:10
Re: Going Round in Circles and then to Easter Island? 338 Horatech 25-May-19 10:53
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 318 Horatech 20-May-19 07:33
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 300 Horatech 21-May-19 09:52
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 349 Dr. Troglodyte 21-May-19 18:30
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 335 MDaines 23-May-19 07:51
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 326 Horatech 23-May-19 10:48
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 295 MDaines 23-May-19 17:07
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 332 Horatech 24-May-19 08:12
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 325 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 16:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 316 MDaines 23-May-19 17:05
Re: Great Circles, Small Circles, Easter Island 339 Dr. Troglodyte 23-May-19 17:31
Re: Great Circles and Small Circles and Easter Island 373 Horatech 27-May-19 10:30
Re: What A Shame 285 Barbelo 19-May-19 20:48
Re: To Easter Island? 306 Horatech 18-May-19 09:28
Re: To Easter Island? 262 Eddie Larry 17-May-19 15:11
Re: To Easter Island? 297 Horatech 18-May-19 14:58
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 296 drew 15-May-19 23:57
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 297 MDaines 16-May-19 06:14
Re: The Three Stone Ships from the East - of the Giza Plateau 292 drew 16-May-19 06:42
ps 256 drew 16-May-19 07:22
Re: ps 272 Barbelo 16-May-19 11:11
Re: ps 283 MDaines 16-May-19 12:10
Re: ps 314 Thanos5150 16-May-19 16:06
Re: ps 303 Barbelo 16-May-19 21:00
Sometimes I go the long way round… 325 drew 17-May-19 00:59


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