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MDaines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mercer quote was found on sacredtexts.com.
> I’ll leave you all to the apparently huge task
> of clarifying the groundwork that led to
> transliterating Egyptian hieroglyphs into the
> current understanding of them. If I thought there
> was a straight and simple answer out there
> somewhere, I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words.
> I’m curious but the earliest Sumerian symbols
> (pre-cuneiform) are my subject, so I’ll leave it
> at that. Note that I don’t refer to them as
> proto-cuneiform because this is the study of a
> pre-existing symbolic (pictographic) language that
> degenerated into abstraction (cuneiform), not the
> usual understanding of it as the beginning of
> intelligent communication - that led to our
> current sad state of bickering, obfuscation and
> misinterpretation.
> I wish you good progress!
> Madeleine

Hello Madeleine,

"I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words."

You are absolutely correct and this is not the case. The images represent both sounds and words and that is what Champollion discovered. I posted an example on my thread on Gardiner F31 and how he discovered that. The upshot is that as far as the current model of understanding goes, an Upper Egyptian phonetic script fused with a Lower Egyptian pictographic script upon unification in 3000 BC. Some of the pictographs were adopted others were phased out by the time of Den in the First Dynasty (Helck). So there is a phonetic alphabet, phonograms, and there are logograms. The logograms act both as words and can also be determinatives, context symbols. This may give you some added perspective on the lioness-bent-rod symbol. That is one of those examples, where no phonetic assignment has ever been discovered. The symbol was inappropriately, so we think, co-mingled with the mooring post symbols. You can obviously disagree with out interpretation of the meaning. Helck thought this is one of those remnants from the Buto linguistic zone and that language may, after all, have proto-cuneiform Mesopotamian or Levantine origins. Excavation in Lower Egypt will hopefully reveal what may be hidden under thousands of years of mud.


Addendum: More accurately, I should have written "ideograms" instead of "logograms". Ideograms, the broader functional category term, in Egyptian can either complete words, in which they are also logograms, or they can be determinatives, context symbols in Egyptian. You have a similar siutation in Lewian script, the original Hittite hieroglyphic language before cuneiform entered that zone.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01-Dec-18 16:02 by Manu.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 947 Duketown 30-Nov-18 12:46
Mod Note > Topic Relocated/Retitled 210 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:35
Mod Note > ETA Etiquette 206 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:40
Re: Jean-François Champollion's "Opening Speech…” 268 Duketown 30-Nov-18 16:46
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 290 MDaines 01-Dec-18 08:55
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 244 cladking 01-Dec-18 14:59
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 258 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:04
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 238 cladking 01-Dec-18 15:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 244 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:15
Dream the Imparsible Dream. 260 cladking 02-Dec-18 15:01
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 246 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 16:49
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 179 cladking 02-Dec-18 19:45
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 200 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 19:51
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 297 cladking 02-Dec-18 20:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 271 Manu 01-Dec-18 15:38
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 269 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:03
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 247 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 277 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:18
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 275 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:29
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 241 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:05
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 196 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:33
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 260 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 228 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:44
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 273 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:58
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 217 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 270 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 205 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:37
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 270 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:52
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 193 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:13
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 239 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 195 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 286 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:42
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 212 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 257 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:57
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 333 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 21:22
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 243 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:23
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 229 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 245 cladking 01-Dec-18 22:50
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 225 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 247 cladking 01-Dec-18 23:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 285 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 23:16
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 307 Manu 01-Dec-18 18:24
Egyptian Language Crash Course 353 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 247 Duketown 01-Dec-18 15:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 197 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:15
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 273 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:28
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 202 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:20
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 295 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:30
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 281 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 278 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:42


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