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MDaines Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> The Mercer quote was found on sacredtexts.com.
> I’ll leave you all to the apparently huge task
> of clarifying the groundwork that led to
> transliterating Egyptian hieroglyphs into the
> current understanding of them. If I thought there
> was a straight and simple answer out there
> somewhere, I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words.
> I’m curious but the earliest Sumerian symbols
> (pre-cuneiform) are my subject, so I’ll leave it
> at that. Note that I don’t refer to them as
> proto-cuneiform because this is the study of a
> pre-existing symbolic (pictographic) language that
> degenerated into abstraction (cuneiform), not the
> usual understanding of it as the beginning of
> intelligent communication - that led to our
> current sad state of bickering, obfuscation and
> misinterpretation.
> I wish you good progress!
> Madeleine

Hello Madeleine,

"I might ask why there is such certainty
> that the images represented sounds that could be
> linked to an alphabet rather than entire words."

You are absolutely correct and this is not the case. The images represent both sounds and words and that is what Champollion discovered. I posted an example on my thread on Gardiner F31 and how he discovered that. The upshot is that as far as the current model of understanding goes, an Upper Egyptian phonetic script fused with a Lower Egyptian pictographic script upon unification in 3000 BC. Some of the pictographs were adopted others were phased out by the time of Den in the First Dynasty (Helck). So there is a phonetic alphabet, phonograms, and there are logograms. The logograms act both as words and can also be determinatives, context symbols. This may give you some added perspective on the lioness-bent-rod symbol. That is one of those examples, where no phonetic assignment has ever been discovered. The symbol was inappropriately, so we think, co-mingled with the mooring post symbols. You can obviously disagree with out interpretation of the meaning. Helck thought this is one of those remnants from the Buto linguistic zone and that language may, after all, have proto-cuneiform Mesopotamian or Levantine origins. Excavation in Lower Egypt will hopefully reveal what may be hidden under thousands of years of mud.


Addendum: More accurately, I should have written "ideograms" instead of "logograms". Ideograms, the broader functional category term, in Egyptian can either complete words, in which they are also logograms, or they can be determinatives, context symbols in Egyptian. You have a similar siutation in Lewian script, the original Hittite hieroglyphic language before cuneiform entered that zone.



Edited 4 time(s). Last edit at 01-Dec-18 16:02 by Manu.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 923 Duketown 30-Nov-18 12:46
Mod Note > Topic Relocated/Retitled 199 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:35
Mod Note > ETA Etiquette 195 Dr. Troglodyte 30-Nov-18 16:40
Re: Jean-François Champollion's "Opening Speech…” 255 Duketown 30-Nov-18 16:46
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 280 MDaines 01-Dec-18 08:55
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 234 cladking 01-Dec-18 14:59
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 249 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:04
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 225 cladking 01-Dec-18 15:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 231 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 15:15
Dream the Imparsible Dream. 240 cladking 02-Dec-18 15:01
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 234 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 16:49
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 167 cladking 02-Dec-18 19:45
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 188 Martin Stower 02-Dec-18 19:51
Re: Dream the Imparsible Dream. 288 cladking 02-Dec-18 20:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 255 Manu 01-Dec-18 15:38
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 256 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:03
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 231 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 268 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:18
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 263 Duketown 01-Dec-18 16:29
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 222 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:05
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 179 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 17:33
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 247 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 219 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:44
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 261 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:58
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 205 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:07
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 255 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 193 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 19:37
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 256 Duketown 01-Dec-18 19:52
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 183 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:13
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 225 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:25
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 186 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 272 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:42
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 197 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 20:47
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 244 Duketown 01-Dec-18 20:57
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 318 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 21:22
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 230 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:23
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 218 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 233 cladking 01-Dec-18 22:50
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 215 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 22:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 237 cladking 01-Dec-18 23:11
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 274 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 23:16
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 292 Manu 01-Dec-18 18:24
Egyptian Language Crash Course 337 Manu 01-Dec-18 16:35
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 231 Duketown 01-Dec-18 15:32
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 180 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 16:15
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 257 Duketown 01-Dec-18 17:28
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 195 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:20
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 280 Duketown 01-Dec-18 18:30
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 270 Martin Stower 01-Dec-18 18:56
Re: The rationale for glyph sounds expressed in modern alphabet 259 Duketown 01-Dec-18 22:42


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