Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
Welcome! Log InRegister
Good Morning,


Quote
Quote Specifically, plate V, upper right. There you see the "ws" scepter in association with two different orientations of the regnal year (presumably of Sneferu in this case).

"I see two upright ws sceptres (tho the lower one is somewhat curved) and these appear to be associated with what looks like the Djed pillar sign (Djedfre?). This is then followed with the year sign followed by various upright number signs"

You got it right. I wanted to alert you to this context in case you want to pursue this further. There are five symbols, "ws", "nfr", "wr", "hb", and "htp" which show up on several blocks around Giza, Dashur and Meydum and in the examples available they are sometimes associated with regnal year counts, sometimes also with month and day, but not always. Sometimes, they appear "stamped" over or next to other marks in darker red indicating that it was a later addition. So there is no sure link with a date (or any number or any other sign for that matter) and these five symbols. This was reported in 1929 by Hermann Junker and he noticed that there is a common theme to their meanings; all positive attributes suggesting to him they might be crew signs. Reading Junker I got the impression there are many inscribed blocks, more, it seems, than what we have access to in published material which are samples. Whatever you do with this, one way or another, I would mention this and then explain why you think this case is different and anachronistic. This is another interpretation from the one that the symbols denote "zero" and the numbers are deviations (see Doc. Trog's thread". In other words, my main reason for mentioning this to you was to alert you that "ws" and "nfr" symbols weren't anything unusual as part of quarry marks. It's not the presence of the symbols per se' you're after, as I see it, it's the context around them. To establish that context, and then appraise any deviation from it, is key to your argument. If the symbols can appear in isolation of any firm association, for example with different "aprw's", then whatever you think is associated, ie written together in the same instance, could rather be from a different inscription instances. So you may have to emphasize that you believe, on the contrary, there is a context and say why. Consider that these five symbols could be nothing but a final quality mark of pride. It is also possible that Junker was wrong and there is no common theme to them, but there seems to be no rhyme or reason around them. You beg to differ I take it.

I understand that you wonder if the inscriptions on the rafters might be fakes. Your base assumption is there is a typical context to these symbols, i.e. they must appear together with something else. That something else is a number in Campbell's chamber (and in some of the quarry marks elsewhere as well) and you have concluded that number and symbol belong together which I also wonder, but am not sure yet they do. This is a key assumption you need to define first based on all the samples available. Assuming that symbol and number are a unit and were inscribed at the same instance, you are then wondering if the numerals are written in a way inconsistent with what would be typical for the Old Kingdom under the assumption that they were inscribed together with "ws" or "nfr". In the examples shown, the long axis of "ws" and the year/month numerals upright-align as cardinals, while the day numerals appear sideways as ordinals. In Campbell's chamber the numerals do not align with "ws" and "nfr". You are debating why they appear as ordinal numbers (sideways) when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr". In a hypothetical fraud scenario, the forger didn't know the difference, and so he oriented them in this way, while in "Operations" it is written upright, as it should appear, if they were cattle counts or regnal years, or cubits of measurement let's say. Your litmus test was to ask for another example of a number written in the ordinal way which is unrelated to a date and which would prove that either way was ok in the OK.

This is what you're wondering, right? I hope I stated that correctly.

Let me isolate the key phrase:

"when they should be cardinal (upright) and aligned with "ws" and "nfr"

Why should they? That's the essential burden of your proof as I see and I am looking forward to your findings when you publish it.

Options: ReplyQuote


Subject Views Written By Posted
Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 3536 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 839 Barbelo 13-Feb-18 11:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 791 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 11:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 811 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 12:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 790 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 830 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 17:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 813 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 704 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 705 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 702 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 18:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 708 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 21:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 733 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 21:22
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 702 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 744 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 23:44
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 718 Merrell 14-Feb-18 08:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 689 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 17:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 676 Martin Stower 18-Jul-18 14:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 690 R Avry Wilson 13-Feb-18 21:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 713 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 01:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 652 sfbey 14-Feb-18 02:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 695 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 03:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 736 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 10:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 704 M. J. Thomas 14-Feb-18 11:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 670 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 685 M. J. Thomas 13-Feb-18 17:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 725 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 18:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 736 Scott Creighton 13-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 740 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 729 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 645 Morten 13-Feb-18 22:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 776 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 701 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 768 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 14:50
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 669 cladking 14-Feb-18 15:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 783 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 676 cladking 14-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 683 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 691 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 658 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 16:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 671 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 17:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 671 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 661 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 778 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 650 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 686 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 764 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 18:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 762 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 622 Martin Stower 16-Jun-18 09:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 700 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 17:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 645 Scott Creighton 14-Feb-18 17:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 717 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 693 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 743 Morten 14-Feb-18 16:07
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 683 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 16:35
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 653 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 673 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 18:51
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 683 Origyptian 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 656 R Avry Wilson 14-Feb-18 19:02
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 664 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:13
Agree. n/t 654 Morten 14-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Agree. n/t 681 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 19:47
Linen list 673 Morten 14-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Linen list 690 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:43
Re: Linen list 662 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 22:59
Re: Linen list 682 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:09
Re: Linen list 676 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:54
Re: Linen list 701 Origyptian 15-Feb-18 15:08
Re: Linen list 623 Morten 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 712 Manu 07-Apr-18 02:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 729 Scott Creighton 07-Apr-18 15:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 756 Manu 07-Apr-18 19:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 784 Martin Stower 03-May-18 21:57
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 696 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 21:37
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 711 Martin Stower 13-Feb-18 22:54
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 678 Corpuscles 13-Feb-18 23:55
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 687 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 684 Martin Stower 14-Feb-18 00:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 677 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 01:01
I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 686 Barbelo 14-Feb-18 04:07
Re: I Know Someone Who May Be Able To Help 679 Corpuscles 14-Feb-18 06:31
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 655 eyeofhorus33 14-Feb-18 18:53
This book might help ? 659 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:20
Re: This book might help ? 688 Morten 14-Feb-18 18:36
Re: This book might help ? 661 sfbey 14-Feb-18 18:47
Re: This book might help ? 677 Warwick 14-Feb-18 19:16
Re: This book might help ? 656 sfbey 14-Feb-18 20:14
Re: This book might help ? 694 Warwick 14-Feb-18 20:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 791 Morten 14-Feb-18 23:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 667 sfbey 15-Feb-18 02:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 677 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 10:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 676 Morten 15-Feb-18 10:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 665 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 11:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 697 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:11
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 714 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 12:28
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 723 Morten 15-Feb-18 12:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 634 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 682 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 637 Morten 15-Feb-18 17:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 645 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 629 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:29
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 635 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 666 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 651 Morten 15-Feb-18 18:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 721 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:04
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 683 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 631 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:23
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 784 Martin Stower 18-Feb-18 23:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 650 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 692 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 18:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 654 Warwick 15-Feb-18 18:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 659 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:20
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 672 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:40
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 689 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:08
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 776 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 692 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 15:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 660 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 667 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 670 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 637 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 16:41
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 655 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 16:46
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 682 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 17:16
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 654 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 17:27
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 691 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 18:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 688 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 18:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 666 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 18:52
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 754 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 830 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 638 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:15
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 687 eyeofhorus33 15-Feb-18 19:36
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 667 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 19:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 667 sfbey 15-Feb-18 19:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 658 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:25
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 645 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:30
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 676 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 651 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 671 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:38
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 616 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 20:56
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 649 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:09
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 655 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:19
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 614 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 651 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 627 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:42
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 639 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:53
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 641 Morten 15-Feb-18 21:58
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 637 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:06
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 667 sfbey 16-Feb-18 00:03
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 730 Morten 16-Feb-18 06:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 654 Scott Creighton 16-Feb-18 11:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 680 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 11:21
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 642 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 600 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 615 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:34
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 616 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:17
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 575 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:24
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 577 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 590 Scott Creighton 15-Feb-18 21:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 670 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 21:59
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 703 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 11:45
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 738 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 14:33
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 664 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 15:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 649 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:05
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 641 Scott Creighton 27-Feb-18 16:12
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 624 Martin Stower 27-Feb-18 16:25
Curiouser and curiouser 772 Warwick 27-Feb-18 18:01
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 618 Corpuscles 15-Feb-18 21:47
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 802 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 22:13
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 612 R Avry Wilson 15-Feb-18 20:26
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 614 Martin Stower 15-Feb-18 20:39
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 641 Spiros 16-Feb-18 09:32
Re: Rotated (or horizontal) numerals in Campbell’s Chamber 598 Spiros 16-Feb-18 11:38
Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 726 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 14:19
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 627 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:52
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 634 Morten 16-Feb-18 14:55
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 627 sfbey 16-Feb-18 14:59
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 643 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:13
Thank you n/t 732 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:53
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 663 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:00
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 618 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:25
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 620 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:29
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 644 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:05
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 629 sfbey 16-Feb-18 15:12
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 648 Martin Stower 16-Feb-18 15:18
Re: Items of interest in Gliddon 1847 620 Morten 16-Feb-18 15:51


Sorry, only registered users may post in this forum.