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Scott Creighton Wrote:
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> Miatello, a specialist in AE mathematics, thinks
> it's hieratic '20' - J.P. Allen and Hawass have
> offered some support to his notion. But you know
> better because you're more knowledgeable than all
> those folks, aren't you?
Let's review:
Am I'm not the only one. Allen and Hawass did not give a 100% endorsement to Miatello, and if you care to do some internet research you'll find other arguments against Miatello. Notice that I use good reasoning to explain why the markings may not be '20'. (This 'reasoning' will come into play later in your post.) Lastly, pay SPECIAL attention to where I wrote: "The link is to the only paper {Miatello} has on this specific set of glyphs. No discussion or reasoning." In other words, looks like he ran it past some colleagues with the sole purpose of doing a press release, i.e. not a paper submitted to a relative peer reviewed journal. This doesn't sound like someone who is convinced of their own argument, and especially odd from a 'specialist' .... oh wait ... a 'self-proclaimed' specialist -> at academia.edu he lists as 'Independent Researcher, Egyptology, Department Member'. Department member? Of what? Miatello has published in a number of relative journals, so why not on this?
> There's opinion and there's 'reasoned opinion'. I
> choose the latter.
Et voila. It is you who thinks your opinion is reasonable. It isn't. It's a cockamamie notion of forgery you've invented because you feel obligated to expand the already faulty cartouche forgery.
> That's what it's all about. Problem for you
> though, and the thing you simply cannot
> countenance,
(Ah, but I have ...)
> is there are many who actually agree
> with my opinion and disagree with yours.
The only people who agree with you are ... who? ... disciples who don't understand the subject matter? AGAIN, take your theory to forums other than alternative MBs, then get back to me when you have their support.
> That YOU
> and the other hardcore Egypt fundamentalists here
> disagree is only to be expected - par for the
> course, so to speak.
I am certainly not a 'hardcore Egypt fundamentalist'. Neither 'hardcore' nor 'fundamentalist'. There are plenty of actions I vehemently disagree with. Try a little more finesse with your brush strokes, eh? Anyways, yes, disagreement is expected, but not because of any 'hardcore fundamentalism', rather some pretty basic objections.
> A signed affidavit from Vyse
> that he forged these markings would not convince
> you of Vyse's guilt and would instead have you
> finding some way to negate such a proof.
Strawman alert.
> You
> simply will NEVER accept these painted markings
> are fraudlent under ANY circumstances. I get that
> - I won't ever convince everyone.
Much to your chagrin. I have very good reason not to accept them as fraudulent. But listen carefully: IF a genuine document comes out written in Vyse's own hand where he explicitly states a plan to commit (or that he did commit) a forgery in these chambers, then I would accept it. Why? Because I accept genuine truths. HOWEVER, in light of other context, the evidence says Khufu built the GP, and WITHOUT the signed confession from Vyse I tend to accept the current theory.
> But I don't suspect that is the real issue here -
> I actually think the issue for you is that anyone
> should at all have the slightest temerity to even
> challenge your worldview; in your view you KNOW
> the truth and that we are all just listen to what
> we're told by you and those like you, shut up and
> just eat our cereal. You know - fascist-style.
Spare me the soap-boxing, Scott. You are free to challenge whatever you wish. The problem is not that a worldview (which you have no idea of what mine is - please stick to the specific subject) is being challenged, it is the value of the challenge.
> Well, as I've oft said before - hell will freeze
> over first. Oh and welcome to the real world.
Indeed it would before we go back to a free-for-all mindset of the Dark Ages and beyond. Anyhoo, if you wish to continue deflecting to a discussion of the virtues and failings of society, please find another venue.
> In case it's escaped your attention, I presented a
> scenario to explain these anomalous orientations
> of these numbers.
Of course you did. Congratulations. The scenario is bogus, predicated on the already faulty cartouche forgery claim. It is as desperate a claim as it is wrong.
> The one thing these marks have
> in abundance is DOUBT. The problem for
> mainstreamers is that there SHOULDN'T be ANY
> doubt. But, however much you pretend to yourself
> there is no doubt, there IS doubt about these
> marks. And those doubts aren't going to go away
> any time soon.
It is you who creates the doubt in the context of forgery, not anybody else. Sure, there is doubt about a timeline when they were put on the block during construction (eg: writing Nefer preceded the numerals), or maybe even which way the writer was standing. But there is no doubt they are viable numerals written by workers who helped build the pyramid for Khufu. :)
-------------------------------------------------------
>Quote
RW: Because what is written there is not
> the number 20. This was already explained to
> you.
> Miatello, a specialist in AE mathematics, thinks
> it's hieratic '20' - J.P. Allen and Hawass have
> offered some support to his notion. But you know
> better because you're more knowledgeable than all
> those folks, aren't you?
Let's review:
Quote
R Avry Wilson Wrote: January 27, 2018 10:39PM
-------------------------------------------------------
> sfbey Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Scott, Can you find Miatello's "20" glyph
> anywhere
> > else? Inscription, book, list etc etc etc?
>
> Best I can find in a quick search is
> Miatello citing the Cairo fragment and pBerlin. The link is to the only paper he has on this specific set of glyphs. No discussion or reasoning.
>
> Here is a net image of hieratic numbers.
>
> In the online news releases (which all lead back
> to Italian compatriot and archaeological
> journalist Rossela Lorenzi's report -
> [web.archive.org]) have
> brief notes from James Allen giving a tentative
> thumbs up. However, what this means is that
> Miatello's conclusions are far from confirmed. The
> '20' glyph could easily be Gardiner W25, and with
> the '1' really being M17 we could just as readily
> conclude it is 'ini' - to 'fetch'/'bring' a
> quantity of 100 (IF the '100' glyph is still
> '100', of course).
>
> Two things at play: The conclusion of being
> numbers at all is very much inconclusive. Two,
> that suggesting a contemporary employment of
> glyphs not resonating is supposed to mean Merer's
> text is dated wrong is preposterous.
Am I'm not the only one. Allen and Hawass did not give a 100% endorsement to Miatello, and if you care to do some internet research you'll find other arguments against Miatello. Notice that I use good reasoning to explain why the markings may not be '20'. (This 'reasoning' will come into play later in your post.) Lastly, pay SPECIAL attention to where I wrote: "The link is to the only paper {Miatello} has on this specific set of glyphs. No discussion or reasoning." In other words, looks like he ran it past some colleagues with the sole purpose of doing a press release, i.e. not a paper submitted to a relative peer reviewed journal. This doesn't sound like someone who is convinced of their own argument, and especially odd from a 'specialist' .... oh wait ... a 'self-proclaimed' specialist -> at academia.edu he lists as 'Independent Researcher, Egyptology, Department Member'. Department member? Of what? Miatello has published in a number of relative journals, so why not on this?
>Quote
RW: Besides, you seem to think having an
> opinion makes the opinion true by virtue of it
> having been expressed.
> There's opinion and there's 'reasoned opinion'. I
> choose the latter.
Et voila. It is you who thinks your opinion is reasonable. It isn't. It's a cockamamie notion of forgery you've invented because you feel obligated to expand the already faulty cartouche forgery.
>Quote
RW:Your opinion has been weighed and
> measured and found wanting.
> That's what it's all about. Problem for you
> though, and the thing you simply cannot
> countenance,
(Ah, but I have ...)
> is there are many who actually agree
> with my opinion and disagree with yours.
The only people who agree with you are ... who? ... disciples who don't understand the subject matter? AGAIN, take your theory to forums other than alternative MBs, then get back to me when you have their support.
> That YOU
> and the other hardcore Egypt fundamentalists here
> disagree is only to be expected - par for the
> course, so to speak.
I am certainly not a 'hardcore Egypt fundamentalist'. Neither 'hardcore' nor 'fundamentalist'. There are plenty of actions I vehemently disagree with. Try a little more finesse with your brush strokes, eh? Anyways, yes, disagreement is expected, but not because of any 'hardcore fundamentalism', rather some pretty basic objections.
> A signed affidavit from Vyse
> that he forged these markings would not convince
> you of Vyse's guilt and would instead have you
> finding some way to negate such a proof.
Strawman alert.
> You
> simply will NEVER accept these painted markings
> are fraudlent under ANY circumstances. I get that
> - I won't ever convince everyone.
Much to your chagrin. I have very good reason not to accept them as fraudulent. But listen carefully: IF a genuine document comes out written in Vyse's own hand where he explicitly states a plan to commit (or that he did commit) a forgery in these chambers, then I would accept it. Why? Because I accept genuine truths. HOWEVER, in light of other context, the evidence says Khufu built the GP, and WITHOUT the signed confession from Vyse I tend to accept the current theory.
> But I don't suspect that is the real issue here -
> I actually think the issue for you is that anyone
> should at all have the slightest temerity to even
> challenge your worldview; in your view you KNOW
> the truth and that we are all just listen to what
> we're told by you and those like you, shut up and
> just eat our cereal. You know - fascist-style.
Spare me the soap-boxing, Scott. You are free to challenge whatever you wish. The problem is not that a worldview (which you have no idea of what mine is - please stick to the specific subject) is being challenged, it is the value of the challenge.
> Well, as I've oft said before - hell will freeze
> over first. Oh and welcome to the real world.
Indeed it would before we go back to a free-for-all mindset of the Dark Ages and beyond. Anyhoo, if you wish to continue deflecting to a discussion of the virtues and failings of society, please find another venue.
>Quote
RW: I could also point out the orientation
> of the numerals to the signs may not be relative
> at all, ie not written at the same time. One guy
> marks nefer, another comes along later and writes
> a number. This creates doubt in knowing the truth
> (barring 4500 year old video) of how they were
> written, and such doubt sinks any opinion you
> might have showing any sign of validity.
> In case it's escaped your attention, I presented a
> scenario to explain these anomalous orientations
> of these numbers.
Of course you did. Congratulations. The scenario is bogus, predicated on the already faulty cartouche forgery claim. It is as desperate a claim as it is wrong.
> The one thing these marks have
> in abundance is DOUBT. The problem for
> mainstreamers is that there SHOULDN'T be ANY
> doubt. But, however much you pretend to yourself
> there is no doubt, there IS doubt about these
> marks. And those doubts aren't going to go away
> any time soon.
It is you who creates the doubt in the context of forgery, not anybody else. Sure, there is doubt about a timeline when they were put on the block during construction (eg: writing Nefer preceded the numerals), or maybe even which way the writer was standing. But there is no doubt they are viable numerals written by workers who helped build the pyramid for Khufu. :)
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