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For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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charly Wrote:
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> Scott Creighton Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > charly Wrote:
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> > -----
> > > Jon Ellison Wrote:
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > > -----
> > > > charly Wrote:
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > > -----
> > > > > Jon Ellison Wrote:
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > > -----
> > > > > > charly Wrote:
> > > > > >
> > > > >
> > > >
> > >
> >
> --------------------------------------------------
>
> >
> > >
> > > >
> > > > >
> > > > > > -----
> > > > > > > Audrey Wrote:
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > > Even if every mastaba were
> originally
> > a
> > > > > tomb,
> > > > > > > how
> > > > > > > > would that show that the pyramids
> > were
> > > > > tombs?
> > > > > >
> > > > > > >
> > > > > > > The pyramid evolved from the mastaba;
> > > > > Djoser's
> > > > > > > original mastaba evolved into a
> stepped
> > > > > mastaba
> > > > > > > and then with Sekhemkhet a square
> > > grounplan
> > > > > was
> > > > > > > used thus creating the first step
> > > pyramid.
> > > > > >
> > > > > > That's a neat hypothesis, now how are
> you
> > > > going
> > > > > to
> > > > > > prove it?
> > > > >
> > > > > Not a hypothesis, just a statement of
> > facts.
> > > >
> > > > Djoser's pyramid was converted from a
> > mastaba.
> > > > The great pyramids were not converted from
> a
> > > > mastaba.
> > > > The great pyramids are very unlike Djosers
> > > > pyramid.
> > > > You're confusing evolution with conversion.
> > > > Therefore the notion of pyramid by pyramid
> > > > evolution is an unproven hypothesis and not
> a
> > > fact
> > > > or proven theory.
> > > > How are you going to prove that hypothesis?
> > >
> > > If by great pyramids you mean those of the
> 4th
> > > dyn, they are just another step in pyramid
> > > evolution.
> > > The Medum pyramid complex is the link between
> > the
> > > step pyramid complex and the "true" pyramid
> > > complex.
> > > The pyramid of Medum was originally a step
> > pyramid
> > > but the other parts of the complex were
> > something
> > > new, a blueprint if you like for all that
> > followed
> > > untill the end of the OK; cult pyramid
> (first
> > one
> > > ever, but a stepped one; only one of it's
> kind
> > ),
> > > funerary chapel (evolved into temple),
> causway,
> > > valley temple.
> > > Don't forget that this step pyramid was
> > converted
> > > into a "true" pyramid.
> >
> > Some questions:
> >
> > First: Why do you think the Meidum inner
> stepped
> > 'cores' were smoothed with casing stones and
> then
> > additonal casing stones added to convert to a
> true
> > pyramid?
>
> Sneferu wanted a true pyramid, after the problems
> with the Bent the conversion at Meidum started
> etc. As you well know you can find this in most
> works about pyramids.
>
> > Second: Why do you think the core stepped
> > footprint of Meidum was constructed on solid
> > bedrock but the added casing to convert t to a
> > true pyramid was built on sand (hence why this
> > part collapsed)?
>
> Collapse occured centuries later as you probably
> know.
>
> > It strongly suggests to me that there were two
> > quite different builders involved. One who
> > understood and knew how to build a secure
> > structure i.e. on a solid foundation and one
> who
> > was quite ignorant of such. I'd be interested
> to
> > hear your view.
> >
> > SC
>
> It suggest Sneferu wanted a true pyramid at all
> costs, no need for two different builders.

Proof?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Plausible functions of the great pyramid 2485 Nemobutwhatiimagian 04-Jan-18 19:10
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 593 Nemobutwhatiimagian 04-Jan-18 19:15
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 518 Barbelo 04-Jan-18 20:29
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 379 theoferrum 11-Jan-18 21:43
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 380 Nemobutwhatiimagian 05-Jan-18 12:53
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 441 D-Archer 05-Jan-18 13:25
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 395 Nemobutwhatiimagian 05-Jan-18 14:24
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 361 Pifaaso 05-Jan-18 14:58
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 350 MBeeler 07-Jan-18 05:14
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 442 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 14:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 458 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 17:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 347 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 19:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 391 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 20:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 377 M. J. Thomas 05-Jan-18 22:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 398 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 22:16
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 443 M. J. Thomas 06-Jan-18 00:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 360 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 08:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 352 Nemobutwhatiimagian 06-Jan-18 19:08
Re: Function in plain sight! 450 Thunderbird 07-Jan-18 19:12
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 377 Corpuscles 05-Jan-18 19:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 344 cladking 05-Jan-18 20:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 359 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 21:30
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 282 Audrey 06-Jan-18 06:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 399 charly 06-Jan-18 11:19
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 308 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 14:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 307 charly 06-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 287 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 19:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 285 charly 06-Jan-18 20:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 297 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 276 charly 06-Jan-18 21:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 234 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:58
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 314 charly 06-Jan-18 22:11
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 372 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 21:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 285 charly 06-Jan-18 23:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 298 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 23:14
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 310 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 10:10
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 312 theoferrum 12-Jan-18 07:05
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 353 Martin Stower 12-Jan-18 12:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 293 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 10:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 259 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 310 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 17:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 267 cladking 13-Jan-18 17:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 382 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 19:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 330 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 14:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 341 charly 06-Jan-18 14:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 388 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 15:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 306 charly 06-Jan-18 21:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 267 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 21:46
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 290 charly 06-Jan-18 22:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 253 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 22:21
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 267 charly 06-Jan-18 22:43
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 282 Jon Ellison 06-Jan-18 22:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 275 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 11:13
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 358 Scott Creighton 06-Jan-18 22:07
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 361 charly 07-Jan-18 09:20
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 369 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 11:20
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 247 Merrell 07-Jan-18 12:18
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 309 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 13:23
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 341 charly 07-Jan-18 14:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 294 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 277 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 15:11
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 418 charly 07-Jan-18 15:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 312 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 16:41
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 362 Corpuscles 07-Jan-18 17:28
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 303 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 18:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 449 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 19:27
SC deflection 335 Corpuscles 08-Jan-18 23:00
I must be doing something right, too. n/t 328 cladking 09-Jan-18 02:01
Re:Sneferu and his pyramids 417 charly 09-Jan-18 09:32
Re: Re:Sneferu and his pyramids 311 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 13:26
Re: SC deflection 367 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 15:04
Re: SC deflection 375 Martin Stower 09-Jan-18 16:59
Re: SC deflection 289 Corpuscles 09-Jan-18 23:23
Re: SC deflection 343 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 10:22
Re: SC deflection 314 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 11:56
Re: SC deflection 344 cladking 10-Jan-18 14:25
Re: SC deflection 318 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 15:47
Re: SC deflection 335 cladking 10-Jan-18 17:05
Re: SC deflection 284 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:14
Re: SC deflection 269 cladking 10-Jan-18 17:41
Ramps? 306 Scott Creighton 11-Jan-18 10:57
Re: SC deflection 263 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 20:46
Re: SC deflection 291 cladking 11-Jan-18 21:12
Re: SC deflection 325 Corpuscles 11-Jan-18 01:17
Re: SC deflection 312 Open mind 11-Jan-18 04:07
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 278 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 18:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 325 eyeofhorus33 09-Jan-18 21:05
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 299 cladking 09-Jan-18 22:41
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 322 Corpuscles 10-Jan-18 00:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 250 cladking 10-Jan-18 01:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 286 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 09:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 344 Merrell 10-Jan-18 16:09
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 306 eyeofhorus33 10-Jan-18 17:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 302 Scott Creighton 11-Jan-18 11:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 370 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 15:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 318 eyeofhorus33 11-Jan-18 18:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 299 cladking 11-Jan-18 18:51
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 307 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 19:32
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 266 eyeofhorus33 11-Jan-18 20:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 270 cladking 11-Jan-18 20:56
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 328 Martin Stower 11-Jan-18 21:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 422 cladking 12-Jan-18 01:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 300 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 18:10
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 276 cladking 12-Jan-18 19:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 224 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 20:44
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 255 cladking 12-Jan-18 21:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 274 eyeofhorus33 12-Jan-18 22:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 284 cladking 12-Jan-18 22:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 278 Corpuscles 12-Jan-18 23:25
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 263 cladking 13-Jan-18 00:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 254 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 01:38
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 264 Martin Stower 12-Jan-18 23:37
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 265 cladking 13-Jan-18 00:52
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 300 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 01:26
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 275 cladking 13-Jan-18 03:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 275 Corpuscles 12-Jan-18 23:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 338 Scott Creighton 12-Jan-18 10:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 256 eyeofhorus33 13-Jan-18 07:45
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 344 Scott Creighton 13-Jan-18 11:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 279 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 12:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 251 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 266 cladking 13-Jan-18 15:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 324 eyeofhorus33 13-Jan-18 18:29
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 288 cladking 13-Jan-18 20:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 246 Martin Stower 13-Jan-18 21:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 245 cladking 13-Jan-18 21:34
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 301 eyeofhorus33 14-Jan-18 00:00
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 279 cladking 14-Jan-18 01:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 330 Nemobutwhatiimagian 09-Jan-18 17:55
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 305 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 13:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 326 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:12
Sam: act 3 scene 2 248 Warwick 09-Jan-18 16:58
Re: Sam: act 3 scene 2 286 cladking 09-Jan-18 20:36
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 335 charly 07-Jan-18 15:17
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 248 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:50
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 274 Scott Creighton 07-Jan-18 18:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 355 Thanos5150 08-Jan-18 00:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 344 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 10:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 329 Scott Creighton 08-Jan-18 10:47
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 315 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 11:31
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 394 charly 08-Jan-18 13:18
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 368 Martin Stower 08-Jan-18 14:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 367 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 11:33
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 283 charly 09-Jan-18 13:59
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 266 cladking 09-Jan-18 14:34
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 272 Scott Creighton 09-Jan-18 15:54
the Root of the tree 284 Warwick 09-Jan-18 17:09
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 404 charly 09-Jan-18 19:49
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 258 Thunderbird 09-Jan-18 20:24
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 278 Thanos5150 09-Jan-18 23:01
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 351 Scott Creighton 10-Jan-18 08:42
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 276 Thanos5150 08-Jan-18 21:00
Rubbish! 287 Warwick 09-Jan-18 17:23
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 319 Martin Stower 09-Jan-18 18:02
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 283 Warwick 09-Jan-18 19:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 303 Thanos5150 09-Jan-18 22:35
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 314 Martin Stower 10-Jan-18 18:30
just to be clear... 306 Warwick 10-Jan-18 18:40
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 249 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:08
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 319 charly 07-Jan-18 16:03
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 249 cladking 07-Jan-18 20:27
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 292 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 12:39
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 336 Audrey 07-Jan-18 07:04
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 379 Thanos5150 06-Jan-18 18:54
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 310 cladking 05-Jan-18 21:15
Re: Plausible (?) functions of the great pyramid 294 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 23:34
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 388 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 15:03
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 341 cladking 05-Jan-18 17:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 357 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 17:45
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 360 Jon Ellison 05-Jan-18 18:01
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 315 cladking 05-Jan-18 18:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 357 Nemobutwhatiimagian 14-Jan-18 09:26
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 323 Nemobutwhatiimagian 06-Jan-18 16:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 286 Barbelo 06-Jan-18 19:53
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 320 Open mind 07-Jan-18 08:25
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 329 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 12:18
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 328 Jon Ellison 07-Jan-18 12:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 343 M. J. Thomas 07-Jan-18 16:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 289 Open mind 07-Jan-18 16:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 277 M. J. Thomas 07-Jan-18 19:23
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 309 cladking 07-Jan-18 15:31
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 311 Open mind 07-Jan-18 16:07
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 324 cladking 07-Jan-18 20:42
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 298 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 21:32
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 245 cladking 07-Jan-18 21:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 317 Martin Stower 07-Jan-18 22:19
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 343 Open mind 08-Jan-18 01:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 330 cladking 08-Jan-18 02:46
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 252 Warwick 09-Jan-18 19:15
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 318 Anonymous User 07-Jan-18 17:35
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 285 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 22:02
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 288 Jon Ellison 07-Jan-18 22:09
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 297 cladking 07-Jan-18 22:28
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 338 Nemobutwhatiimagian 07-Jan-18 18:41
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 300 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 18:58
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 288 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 21:16
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 271 Nemobutwhatiimagian 08-Jan-18 21:45
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 319 Open mind 09-Jan-18 21:56
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 323 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 01:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 310 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 16:40
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 302 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:07
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 306 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 17:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 329 Open mind 10-Jan-18 17:50
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 246 Open mind 10-Jan-18 18:00
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 233 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 18:22
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 295 Open mind 10-Jan-18 18:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 301 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 19:06
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 341 Open mind 10-Jan-18 19:27
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 298 Anonymous User 10-Jan-18 19:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 289 Nemobutwhatiimagian 13-Jan-18 11:03
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 322 Anonymous User 13-Jan-18 15:09
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 331 Warwick 10-Jan-18 18:20
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 259 cladking 10-Jan-18 21:27
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 341 Open mind 10-Jan-18 21:33
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 285 Nemobutwhatiimagian 10-Jan-18 23:59
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 368 Open mind 11-Jan-18 03:57
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 237 M. J. Thomas 11-Jan-18 19:35
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 352 Nemobutwhatiimagian 11-Jan-18 01:31
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 337 M. J. Thomas 11-Jan-18 19:48
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 304 cladking 11-Jan-18 01:41
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 300 Open mind 11-Jan-18 02:46
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 390 kborissov 23-Jan-18 00:44
Re: Plausible functions of the great pyramid 420 kborissov 28-Jan-18 18:50


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