Mysteries :  The Official GrahamHancock.com forums
For serious discussion of the controversies, approaches and enigmas surrounding the origins and development of the human species and of human civilization. (NB: for more ‘out there’ posts we point you in the direction of the ‘Paranormal & Supernatural’ Message Board). 
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Origyptian Wrote:

> Aine, I don't claim to have all the answers, but
> it's just too much of a stretch for me to have
> that much blind faith that the vast complexity of
> DNA is a product of random events that bucked the
> 2nd Law by inserting more energy and
> organization into the system. I'm having trouble
> reconciling the degree to which purely natural
> biological processes would allow entropy to take a
> back seat, especially if life is the "next step"
> in the "evolving universe". I'd like to hear more
> of what you're thinking regarding DNA precursors
> that still were able to sustain life.

I don't have all the answers either and I'm not a physicist. BUT...I don't understand how you come to the conclusion that DNA dumps more energy into the system. When the double strand is formed, heat is released as per Law 2. The heat released increases the entropy in the universe more than the decrease in the system.

Metabolism produces excess heat and excretion of high entropy packets. So we maintain our low entropy state through dumping high energy waste products into our environment.

As for DNA precursors, I'm sure you're familiar with the RNA World hypothesis? The interplay between DNA, RNA and proteins pretty much guarantees that life didn't start out using those three macromolecules, but started out based on a simpler, less complex system, one that was probably based on nucleotides. RNA can do all that DNA can and more--but DNA is more stable.


> And if life truly is the next step in the
> evolution of the universe, then we might expect
> more evidence of life out there that demonstrates
> that trend (the single data point of Earth can't
> be used to represent a statistical trend). I
> realize we've barely touched the surface of
> exploring that possibility, but we do not yet have
> evidence to support the notion that life is an
> immutable property of the universe. And if the Big
> Bang model is real, the universe appears to be in
> contraction mode which could arguably mean the
> universe is winding down ("in reversal"?) and not
> evolving further.

There's no evidence that the universe was created by an intelligent designer, but some people seem to accept that wholeheartedly.

It's probably more like the Big Inflation, but I don't see any evidence that the universe is in contraction mode. If it's contracting, how do you explain Hubble's red shifts? How do you explain the fact that every galaxy, with the exception of a few close to us, are moving away from us. And they're not just moving away. The further away they are, the faster they're moving.

How do you explain that?


> It's not that I believe life "must have been"
> created, it's that I can't fathom that such
> complexity and defiance of entropy could be a
> random process that established itself by pure
> coincidence...or by a deity without requiring any
> scientific principles to account for the cause and
> effect. To me, it's akin to claiming that a chimp
> will eventually write perfect Shakespeare if left
> in a room with enough time, pencils, and paper.

But it's not in defiance of the laws. That being said, it's not pure coincidence, either. The stuff of life is chemistry and physics. See RNA World above. Every interaction and evolution of pre-RNA World into DNA follows the laws of chemistry and physics. There's no getting around that.

> What seems contradictory to me is that the ID camp
> is trying to apply scientific principles to the
> process while the God camp is happy to simply have
> faith without the hard work of explaining how it
> all actually happened. So yes, attributing it all
> to an unknown Godly miracle is indeed passing the
> buck in the sense that God is not
> subject to the same burden of proof that the ID
> camp is attempting to invoke to explain those
> processes that rely so much on negative entropy.

The negentropy (negative entropy) in a biological context keeps the entropy of the organism low. As Brillouin says, a living system imports negentropy and stores it. Put another way, the order created by life as it undergoes metabolism (cell division, etc.) is more than compensated for in the heat (entropy) it releases. Don't forget, entropy can only increase or remain constant, never decrease. Organisms take in free energy in the form of nutrients (calories) or sunlight, and they return an equal amount of heat and therefore entropy.

Your dilemma is ultimately resolved by Nobel Peace Prize winning theoretical chemist John Scales Avery, who says that the paradox is resolved "in the information content of the Gibbs free energy that enters the biosphere from outside sources." (Information Theory and Evolution, 2012).


> That's news to me. What are the clearly delineated
> limitations of magic?

I was being sarcastic.

> Requiring rules or parameters for the intelligent
> designer but not for God is a double standard.

Ah, but ultimately, the designer is God. The ID crowd just won't come out and say it.


> And I'm not ignoring the dilemma of "who created
> the intelligent designer". I'm only trying to
> understand how such processes that we see all
> around us today could have been created. Sure,
> it's easy to just kick back and take the
> unfathomable complexity and organization of living
> systems and simply claim they appeared magically
> through divine intervention, but it's another
> thing to actually envision what that means in
> practical terms. Unless one believes Adam and Eve
> did simply suddenly appear one day, fully formed
> with all their organs and personality intact, and
> complete with their own portable ocean (blood) to
> supply them with proper nutrients and waste
> removal, and ready to self-maintain through
> procreative (with whom?!) and healing processes,
> then we need to account for how it all came about.
> I just think attributing it all to the magic hand
> of God is the lazy way out. I can't help but think
> that passing it all off to God is simply a ploy to
> relieve us from the hard work of understanding
> what actually happened.

Okay, but if God created the complexity that is the universe, how complex must he be himself? Surely nothing that complex could come about by random coincidence. Therefore, he must have been created.


> I may be wrong and may eventually come around, but
> I don't see a way to that path any time soon. The
> process is too enormous with profound consequences
> to handwave it all to an unidentified deity
> without understanding what's entailed in that
> process.

And that's just it. They haven't identified the designer. That's one of the shortcomings from a scientific standpoint.
>
> And by the way, this is not about whether you or I
> "believe in God". It's about what specific aspects
> of the universe are attributed to God. The claim
> that God just decided to create it all one day is
> extremely defeatist, and I believe it cuts short
> the true beauty and richness of the universe.

I get it, no offense taken.

You can’t use reason to convince anyone out of an argument that they didn’t use reason to get into.~Neil deGrasse Tyson

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Intelligent Design and Human Origins 2776 MichaelG 29-Dec-17 18:35
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 585 PhiPIandI 29-Dec-17 20:51
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 398 MichaelG 04-Jan-18 16:49
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 440 rodz111 21-Jan-18 15:52
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 470 jjeremybenthem 29-Dec-17 21:25
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 369 MichaelG 08-Jan-18 18:45
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 505 Aine 29-Dec-17 23:49
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 400 M. J. Thomas 30-Dec-17 11:12
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 429 Susan Doris 30-Dec-17 13:10
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 397 Aine 30-Dec-17 14:47
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 350 Susan Doris 30-Dec-17 17:41
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 385 Aine 30-Dec-17 17:57
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 388 Sirfiroth 30-Dec-17 18:18
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 347 Susan Doris 30-Dec-17 18:44
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 400 M. J. Thomas 30-Dec-17 20:52
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 377 Sirfiroth 30-Dec-17 21:54
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 311 Susan Doris 30-Dec-17 22:54
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 356 Sirfiroth 30-Dec-17 23:35
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 435 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 05:44
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 299 gulsbo 10-Jan-18 19:44
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 323 cladking 30-Dec-17 19:11
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 369 Vanya 30-Dec-17 14:04
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 318 MichaelG 08-Jan-18 18:46
Ongoing multidisciplinary studies across academia . . . 424 Reagent 30-Dec-17 02:49
Re: Ongoing multidisciplinary studies across academia . . . 310 MichaelG 08-Jan-18 19:52
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 430 Thunderbird 30-Dec-17 04:16
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 371 Susan Doris 30-Dec-17 13:16
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 365 Thunderbird 31-Dec-17 18:49
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 341 MichaelG 09-Jan-18 21:06
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 259 Origyptian 09-Jan-18 21:32
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 446 Vanya 30-Dec-17 14:25
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 339 Aine 30-Dec-17 14:48
Not necessarily Christian 357 drrayeye 30-Dec-17 22:26
Re: Not necessarily Christian 352 Vanya 31-Dec-17 09:06
Re: Not necessarily Christian 298 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 03:48
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 332 Origyptian 31-Dec-17 16:59
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 330 brett z 31-Dec-17 17:16
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 303 Origyptian 31-Dec-17 17:37
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 305 brett z 31-Dec-17 23:22
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 303 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 07:53
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 283 brett z 01-Jan-18 19:17
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 284 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 22:07
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 278 brett z 01-Jan-18 22:21
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 306 Aine 31-Dec-17 17:46
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 342 Origyptian 31-Dec-17 18:06
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 318 Aine 31-Dec-17 19:23
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 326 Aine 31-Dec-17 19:31
What about Multiverse ? 343 Vanya 01-Jan-18 12:19
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 328 MichaelG 09-Jan-18 21:32
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 331 gulsbo 10-Jan-18 20:05
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 248 cladking 10-Jan-18 20:43
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 282 Origyptian 10-Jan-18 22:13
Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 415 drrayeye 30-Dec-17 22:11
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 292 brett z 30-Dec-17 23:04
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 365 drrayeye 31-Dec-17 08:47
, Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 339 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 09:38
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design 308 DUNE 31-Dec-17 10:29
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 316 drrayeye 31-Dec-17 12:57
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 388 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 13:37
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 343 drrayeye 31-Dec-17 14:13
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 311 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 14:27
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 326 drrayeye 31-Dec-17 14:53
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 332 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 15:56
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 297 Origyptian 31-Dec-17 17:15
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 337 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 02:06
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 237 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 08:05
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 300 Thanos5150 01-Jan-18 01:59
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 298 brett z 01-Jan-18 02:08
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 344 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 06:11
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 289 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 07:59
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 317 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 10:32
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 308 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 17:25
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 344 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 18:29
driving force 308 brett z 01-Jan-18 18:57
Re: driving force 305 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 18:59
Re: driving force 296 brett z 01-Jan-18 19:01
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 324 Aine 02-Jan-18 00:54
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 280 brett z 02-Jan-18 03:31
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 354 Origyptian 02-Jan-18 05:15
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 384 Aine 02-Jan-18 18:06
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 408 Origyptian 02-Jan-18 21:09
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 296 Aine 02-Jan-18 22:55
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 340 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 14:19
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 327 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 15:05
entropy 310 brett z 03-Jan-18 15:45
Re: entropy 322 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 16:22
Re: entropy 312 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 19:56
Re: entropy 350 brett z 03-Jan-18 21:15
Re: entropy 312 Aham 04-Jan-18 05:07
Re: entropy 327 brett z 04-Jan-18 05:52
Re: entropy 293 Aine 04-Jan-18 12:07
Re: entropy 268 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 16:59
Re: entropy 321 brett z 05-Jan-18 17:13
Re: entropy 281 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 18:17
Re: entropy 307 brett z 05-Jan-18 18:21
Re: entropy 293 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 18:08
Re: entropy 299 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 16:13
snow crystals and life 327 brett z 05-Jan-18 20:52
Re: snow crystals and life 289 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 21:18
Re: snow crystals and life 295 brett z 06-Jan-18 22:08
Re: entropy 339 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 15:34
Information 274 drrayeye 05-Jan-18 17:46
Re: Information 259 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 18:36
Re: Information 303 cladking 06-Jan-18 19:35
Re: Information 343 drrayeye 06-Jan-18 20:14
Re: entropy 291 cladking 05-Jan-18 20:16
Re: entropy 267 Eddie Larry 05-Jan-18 20:32
Re: entropy 348 cladking 05-Jan-18 21:53
Re: entropy 301 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 20:47
Re: entropy 284 cladking 06-Jan-18 21:57
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 314 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 19:45
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 244 Aine 03-Jan-18 19:49
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 241 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 23:26
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 273 drrayeye 04-Jan-18 03:03
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 321 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 06:19
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 347 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 17:07
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 300 Susan Doris 05-Jan-18 19:06
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 284 cladking 05-Jan-18 19:33
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 290 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:16
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 242 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 21:26
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 246 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 06:27
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 263 Aine 04-Jan-18 12:21
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 273 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 16:55
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 274 brett z 06-Jan-18 17:21
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 259 cladking 06-Jan-18 20:06
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 336 Thunderbird 06-Jan-18 17:47
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 261 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 17:05
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 270 Thunderbird 08-Jan-18 05:59
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 301 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 16:13
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 272 cladking 08-Jan-18 17:17
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 303 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 17:31
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 269 cladking 08-Jan-18 18:26
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 337 Thunderbird 09-Jan-18 16:55
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 306 cladking 09-Jan-18 20:56
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 269 Thunderbird 10-Jan-18 06:59
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 319 Susan Doris 10-Jan-18 07:40
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 316 Audrey 10-Jan-18 18:03
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 310 Origyptian 10-Jan-18 18:57
Re: Masonic History 297 Thunderbird 10-Jan-18 21:03
Re: Masonic History 297 Origyptian 10-Jan-18 22:21
Re: Masonic History 288 Susan Doris 11-Jan-18 06:35
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 283 Susan Doris 10-Jan-18 19:22
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 230 cladking 10-Jan-18 21:00
Re: The speed of Thought : ) 275 Thunderbird 10-Jan-18 21:31
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 397 Susan Doris 11-Jan-18 06:42
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 275 cladking 10-Jan-18 20:20
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 343 Origyptian 10-Jan-18 21:53
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 256 cladking 11-Jan-18 01:25
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 282 Origyptian 11-Jan-18 06:04
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 399 cladking 11-Jan-18 15:39
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 288 Audrey 11-Jan-18 02:26
Re: UBW/nt 273 Thunderbird 11-Jan-18 03:25
Re: Cosmic Parallels ... 314 cladking 10-Jan-18 14:52
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 268 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 16:30
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 256 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 23:00
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 260 Thunderbird 02-Jan-18 21:18
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 270 Origyptian 02-Jan-18 21:30
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 334 Aine 02-Jan-18 22:59
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 312 Vanya 03-Jan-18 16:49
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 293 Aine 03-Jan-18 17:01
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 263 Vanya 03-Jan-18 19:18
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 334 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 03:14
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 274 Audrey 02-Jan-18 06:05
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 275 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 06:21
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 399 Origyptian 02-Jan-18 13:05
Re: Directed Panspermia 314 Thunderbird 04-Jan-18 03:11
Re: Directed Panspermia 271 Aine 04-Jan-18 12:27
Re: Directed Panspermia 271 Origyptian 05-Jan-18 19:58
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 383 cladking 31-Dec-17 15:19
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 262 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 17:37
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 256 cladking 02-Jan-18 03:38
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 266 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 03:58
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 265 cladking 02-Jan-18 04:18
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 227 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 04:33
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 218 cladking 02-Jan-18 04:49
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 253 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 05:00
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 260 Origyptian 31-Dec-17 17:10
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 251 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 02:19
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 283 Aine 01-Jan-18 02:49
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 293 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 02:56
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 360 Aine 01-Jan-18 03:49
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 264 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 08:09
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 266 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 09:37
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 292 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 17:17
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 293 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 17:28
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 266 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 17:41
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 264 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 20:17
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 248 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 17:57
It's impossible 242 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 21:58
Re: It's impossible 256 Origyptian 01-Jan-18 22:22
Re: It's impossible 293 Audrey 01-Jan-18 22:40
Re: It's impossible 250 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 23:32
Re: It's impossible 272 Aine 02-Jan-18 00:42
Re: It's impossible 298 Eddie Larry 01-Jan-18 23:02
Re: It's impossible 284 brett z 01-Jan-18 23:57
Re: It's impossible 275 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 00:15
anthropic principle 397 brett z 02-Jan-18 00:21
Re: anthropic principle 290 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 04:44
Re: anthropic principle 327 brett z 02-Jan-18 12:16
What Primates Teach Us About Being Human 397 Vanya 02-Jan-18 16:19
Re: What Primates Teach Us About Being Human 260 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 16:59
Re: What Primates Teach Us About Being Human 301 Vanya 02-Jan-18 17:14
Re: It's impossible 270 Aine 02-Jan-18 00:46
Re: It's impossible 283 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 15:40
Re: It's impossible 314 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 16:47
Re: It's impossible 266 drrayeye 02-Jan-18 17:44
Re: It's impossible 280 Aine 02-Jan-18 17:50
Re: It's impossible 253 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 18:04
Re: It's impossible 274 Aine 02-Jan-18 18:07
Re: It's impossible 256 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 23:20
Re: It's impossible 232 Aine 03-Jan-18 00:23
Re: It's impossible 222 cladking 02-Jan-18 19:05
Re: It's impossible 255 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 23:30
Re: It's impossible 271 Aine 03-Jan-18 00:25
Re: It's impossible 339 Eddie Larry 03-Jan-18 10:12
Re: It's impossible 270 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:36
Re: It's impossible 321 cladking 03-Jan-18 15:28
Re: It's impossible 235 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 04:57
Re: It's impossible 232 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 06:39
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 302 Audrey 01-Jan-18 21:00
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 307 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 21:21
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 239 Audrey 01-Jan-18 22:38
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 297 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 23:26
Re: Bioplasma 260 Thunderbird 04-Jan-18 03:30
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 351 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 10:40
Laugh or cry? 321 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 13:00
Re: Laugh or cry? 345 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 14:21
About time for you to learn about atheism 278 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 17:20
Re: About time for you to learn about atheism 268 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 18:03
Re: About time for you to learn about atheism 327 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 20:21
Re: About time for you to learn about atheism 310 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 06:52
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 308 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 20:19
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 321 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 06:54
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 309 Jon Ellison 02-Jan-18 08:23
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 332 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 08:29
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 267 Jon Ellison 02-Jan-18 09:18
Re: , Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 285 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 11:20
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 351 eyeofhorus33 31-Dec-17 15:39
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 371 eli stills 31-Dec-17 16:56
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 350 cladking 31-Dec-17 17:59
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 336 Susan Doris 31-Dec-17 18:23
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 318 cladking 31-Dec-17 19:49
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 349 magisterchessmutt 31-Dec-17 20:56
But I lack the pictures! n/t 340 cladking 31-Dec-17 21:25
My interpretation 302 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 02:35
Re: My interpretation 340 Aine 01-Jan-18 02:46
not to me 362 drrayeye 01-Jan-18 02:54
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 289 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 04:15
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 351 Thanos5150 01-Jan-18 05:38
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 279 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 06:06
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 240 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 06:21
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 265 Thanos5150 01-Jan-18 23:12
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 267 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 00:19
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 270 eli stills 01-Jan-18 18:24
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 238 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 18:55
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 272 eli stills 01-Jan-18 20:34
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 235 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 20:54
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 275 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 01:26
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 285 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 02:37
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 405 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 05:44
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 263 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 05:50
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 286 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 06:11
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 278 eli stills 02-Jan-18 16:21
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 284 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 16:32
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 284 Origyptian 02-Jan-18 16:53
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 329 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 18:06
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 381 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 21:42
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 246 eli stills 03-Jan-18 02:47
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 307 Thanos5150 03-Jan-18 23:07
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 259 eli stills 04-Jan-18 02:11
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 228 Origyptian 04-Jan-18 15:43
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 273 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 06:01
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 322 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 19:06
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 320 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 19:17
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 308 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 23:22
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 275 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 23:25
Kerala 2016 301 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 21:43
Re: Kerala 2016 261 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 23:38
Re: Kerala 2016 283 PB Bytes 04-Jan-18 00:16
and Back to Nigeria 2017 251 PB Bytes 04-Jan-18 05:43
Re: and Back to Nigeria 2017 318 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 16:16
Medjugorje - May 2010 248 PB Bytes 06-Jan-18 19:25
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 288 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 17:56
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 286 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 19:21
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 260 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 03:58
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 210 PB Bytes 08-Jan-18 04:42
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 236 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 18:49
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 236 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 19:25
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 259 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 20:51
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 259 Eddie Larry 07-Jan-18 20:59
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 254 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 21:18
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 315 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 21:42
See ya, Phil 305 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 22:31
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 284 Eddie Larry 08-Jan-18 06:20
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 252 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 21:15
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 271 Jon Ellison 07-Jan-18 21:32
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 240 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 21:42
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 248 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 14:15
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 253 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 03:02
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 268 PB Bytes 08-Jan-18 03:46
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 326 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 14:42
Re: Medjugorje - May 2010 272 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 14:57
Proselytizing: Not 305 PB Bytes 09-Jan-18 01:26
Re: Proselytizing: Not 321 Origyptian 09-Jan-18 04:08
Re: Proselytizing: Not 331 PB Bytes 09-Jan-18 05:05
Re: Proselytizing: Not 299 Origyptian 09-Jan-18 14:05
Re: Proselytizing: Not 334 Susan Doris 09-Jan-18 14:41
13-Year Inquiry 254 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 03:00
Re: 13-Year Inquiry 258 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 19:00
Re: 13-Year Inquiry 224 PB Bytes 07-Jan-18 19:20
Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 341 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 20:02
Re: Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 297 Thanos5150 03-Jan-18 21:43
Re: Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 253 Eddie Larry 03-Jan-18 22:28
Re: Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 269 Thanos5150 03-Jan-18 22:51
Re: Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 281 PB Bytes 04-Jan-18 00:03
Re: Exodus, Hebrews Yahweh etc 300 Thanos5150 04-Jan-18 00:58
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 264 eli stills 02-Jan-18 03:01
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 288 Thanos5150 02-Jan-18 06:07
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 307 eli stills 02-Jan-18 16:38
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 308 Eddie Larry 02-Jan-18 16:46
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 305 Thunderbird 01-Jan-18 20:24
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 312 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 20:47
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 331 Aine 02-Jan-18 00:37
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 310 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 00:57
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 333 Aine 02-Jan-18 01:02
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 310 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 01:21
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 350 eli stills 02-Jan-18 17:19
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 308 Aine 02-Jan-18 17:37
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 288 eyeofhorus33 02-Jan-18 18:00
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 301 eli stills 02-Jan-18 19:28
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 337 eli stills 01-Jan-18 20:54
Re: Intelligent Design is a form of atheism 261 MichaelG 09-Jan-18 21:46
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 364 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 03:02
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 354 Susan Doris 01-Jan-18 06:23
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 307 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 06:45
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 318 eli stills 01-Jan-18 18:43
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 331 PB Bytes 01-Jan-18 19:02
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 334 MichaelG 02-Jan-18 17:18
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 360 Aine 02-Jan-18 17:44
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 287 cladking 02-Jan-18 19:28
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 344 Aine 02-Jan-18 19:33
Genes Drive "Evolution". 320 cladking 03-Jan-18 15:43
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 226 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:26
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 322 cladking 03-Jan-18 17:38
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 324 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 17:47
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 262 cladking 03-Jan-18 20:40
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 300 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 07:48
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 305 cladking 03-Jan-18 17:51
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 324 Aine 03-Jan-18 17:56
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 279 cladking 03-Jan-18 18:10
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 355 Aine 03-Jan-18 18:27
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 325 Eddie Larry 03-Jan-18 18:47
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 279 Aine 03-Jan-18 19:55
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 256 cladking 03-Jan-18 20:52
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 286 Eddie Larry 03-Jan-18 21:12
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 316 Aine 03-Jan-18 23:30
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 285 cladking 04-Jan-18 00:46
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 266 Archaic 04-Jan-18 02:10
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 298 cladking 04-Jan-18 03:37
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 314 Aine 04-Jan-18 12:10
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 325 Thanos5150 04-Jan-18 15:37
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 317 Aine 04-Jan-18 15:40
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 320 Thanos5150 04-Jan-18 16:07
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 308 cladking 04-Jan-18 16:14
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 289 cladking 04-Jan-18 16:35
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 271 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 17:35
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 277 cladking 06-Jan-18 18:37
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 302 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 12:47
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 270 Susan Doris 08-Jan-18 13:28
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 268 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 16:45
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 294 Susan Doris 08-Jan-18 16:53
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 256 cladking 08-Jan-18 19:48
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 267 cladking 08-Jan-18 14:59
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 301 cladking 04-Jan-18 15:39
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 300 Vanya 04-Jan-18 16:10
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 313 cladking 04-Jan-18 17:14
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 334 Vanya 04-Jan-18 18:05
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 360 drrayeye 04-Jan-18 18:11
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 295 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 17:41
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 268 Vanya 06-Jan-18 19:51
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 300 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 05:29
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 257 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 17:22
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 278 cladking 06-Jan-18 17:46
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 222 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 16:36
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 306 cladking 07-Jan-18 18:27
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 259 Audrey 07-Jan-18 02:52
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 269 Origyptian 07-Jan-18 16:25
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 236 Audrey 08-Jan-18 02:51
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 280 Thunderbird 10-Jan-18 21:57
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 205 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 18:00
Re: Genes Drive "Evolution". 291 cladking 03-Jan-18 21:03
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 327 Susan Doris 02-Jan-18 19:06
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 311 MichaelG 04-Jan-18 16:41
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 339 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 18:38
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 322 cladking 04-Jan-18 18:54
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 277 cladking 02-Jan-18 19:22
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 284 MichaelG 04-Jan-18 16:45
Design makes sense 303 drrayeye 02-Jan-18 19:49
Re: Design makes sense 340 Aine 02-Jan-18 19:59
Re: Design makes sense 261 brett z 02-Jan-18 20:03
Re: Design makes sense 298 Aine 02-Jan-18 20:05
Re: Design makes sense 291 drrayeye 02-Jan-18 20:31
Re: Design makes sense 324 Aine 03-Jan-18 01:14
Re: Design makes sense 310 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 06:05
Plans and the structure of behavior 399 drrayeye 03-Jan-18 09:09
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 279 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 09:46
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 323 drrayeye 03-Jan-18 19:26
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 301 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 06:46
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 262 drrayeye 04-Jan-18 12:38
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 268 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 14:40
Executive Subroutines 275 drrayeye 04-Jan-18 16:09
Re: Executive Subroutines 276 Origyptian 06-Jan-18 01:14
Re: Executive Subroutines 284 cladking 06-Jan-18 01:51
Re: Executive Subroutines 264 Audrey 06-Jan-18 06:34
Re: Executive Subroutines 258 Susan Doris 06-Jan-18 08:38
Re: Executive Subroutines 280 cladking 06-Jan-18 15:23
Re: Executive Subroutines 260 Audrey 07-Jan-18 02:25
Re: Executive Subroutines 249 cladking 07-Jan-18 02:51
Re: Executive Subroutines 258 Audrey 07-Jan-18 04:04
Re: Executive Subroutines 254 cladking 07-Jan-18 04:53
Re: Executive Subroutines 327 Audrey 08-Jan-18 03:03
Re: Executive Subroutines 249 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 16:42
Re: Executive Subroutines 261 Susan Doris 06-Jan-18 05:45
Intelligent atheists and ID: Your reading list is long 249 drrayeye 06-Jan-18 06:28
Re: Intelligent atheists and ID: Your reading list is long 279 Susan Doris 06-Jan-18 08:36
Not a great start 286 drrayeye 06-Jan-18 10:32
Re: Not a great start 345 Susan Doris 06-Jan-18 12:10
Re: Intelligent atheists and ID: Your reading list is long 270 cladking 06-Jan-18 15:45
Re: Executive Subroutines 284 Audrey 06-Jan-18 06:32
Re: Executive Subroutines 324 Susan Doris 06-Jan-18 09:33
Re: Executive Subroutines 269 cladking 06-Jan-18 15:56
Re: Executive Subroutines 291 Audrey 07-Jan-18 02:15
Re: Executive Subroutines 383 Susan Doris 07-Jan-18 07:57
Re: Executive Subroutines 199 cladking 07-Jan-18 14:29
Re: Executive Subroutines 329 Susan Doris 07-Jan-18 14:45
Re: Executive Subroutines 239 cladking 07-Jan-18 16:36
Re: Executive Subroutines 268 Susan Doris 07-Jan-18 17:54
Re: Executive Subroutines 244 cladking 07-Jan-18 19:31
Re: Executive Subroutines 286 cladking 07-Jan-18 19:52
Re: Executive Subroutines 265 cladking 07-Jan-18 20:15
Re: Executive Subroutines 305 Susan Doris 07-Jan-18 23:32
Re: Executive Subroutines 347 cladking 08-Jan-18 00:57
Re: Executive Subroutines 325 Susan Doris 08-Jan-18 06:11
Re: Executive Subroutines 324 cladking 21-Jan-18 02:04
Re: Executive Subroutines 308 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 13:17
Re: Executive Subroutines 311 Susan Doris 08-Jan-18 13:39
Re: Executive Subroutines 266 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 16:57
Re: Executive Subroutines 251 cladking 08-Jan-18 17:05
Re: Executive Subroutines 317 Susan Doris 08-Jan-18 17:33
Re: Executive Subroutines 243 cladking 06-Jan-18 15:38
Re: Executive Subroutines 279 Eddie Larry 06-Jan-18 15:52
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 275 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:30
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 298 drrayeye 03-Jan-18 19:31
Re: Plans and the structure of behavior 330 Aine 03-Jan-18 19:47
If you really want to know 246 drrayeye 04-Jan-18 04:04
Re: If you really want to know 271 Susan Doris 04-Jan-18 06:51
Re: If you really want to know 264 Aine 04-Jan-18 12:07
Re: Design makes sense 357 Susan Doris 03-Jan-18 00:15
Re: Design makes sense 282 cladking 03-Jan-18 16:30
Re: Design makes sense 330 drrayeye 03-Jan-18 19:34
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 331 Vanya 02-Jan-18 20:13
Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 326 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 20:38
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 319 Aine 02-Jan-18 23:01
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 333 PB Bytes 02-Jan-18 23:39
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 282 Aine 03-Jan-18 00:21
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 318 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 01:24
IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 397 Vanya 03-Jan-18 16:38
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 266 Aine 03-Jan-18 17:03
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 359 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 17:43
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 288 Vanya 03-Jan-18 19:31
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 305 Vanya 04-Jan-18 13:13
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 239 PB Bytes 04-Jan-18 20:22
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 377 Vanya 05-Jan-18 09:15
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 298 PB Bytes 05-Jan-18 20:06
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 408 Vanya 06-Jan-18 14:17
Re: IF .... THEN .... - Random, Mutation, Evolution 252 PB Bytes 06-Jan-18 19:29
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 294 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:38
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 290 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 14:27
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 338 Aine 03-Jan-18 16:29
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 252 Origyptian 03-Jan-18 22:04
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 336 cloister 03-Jan-18 22:14
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 327 cladking 03-Jan-18 17:13
Re: Random mutations and evolution... Intelligent Design and Human Origins 349 PB Bytes 03-Jan-18 17:50
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 244 MichaelG 09-Jan-18 21:49
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 324 gulsbo 06-Jan-18 19:39
Re: Intelligent Design and...Implementation? 266 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 04:48
Re: Intelligent Design and...Implementation? 363 gulsbo 08-Jan-18 20:45
Re: Intelligent Design and...Implementation? 286 Origyptian 08-Jan-18 21:44
Re: Intelligent Design and...Implementation? 349 gulsbo 10-Jan-18 18:43
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 291 MichaelG 09-Jan-18 21:53
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 304 cladking 09-Jan-18 22:21
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 313 gulsbo 10-Jan-18 19:13
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 225 cladking 10-Jan-18 20:33
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 253 Origyptian 10-Jan-18 22:00
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 301 cladking 11-Jan-18 01:54
Re: Intelligent Design and Human Origins 272 cladking 08-Jan-18 20:20
2 points 310 Warwick 10-Jan-18 18:33
Mebbe it was designed by committee n/t 352 cladking 10-Jan-18 20:47
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee n/t 267 Warwick 10-Jan-18 20:58
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee 304 cladking 10-Jan-18 21:11
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee 296 MichaelG 17-Jan-18 18:26
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee 288 cladking 17-Jan-18 18:42
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee 268 Audrey 17-Jan-18 23:39
Re: Mebbe it was designed by committee 394 Warwick 17-Jan-18 23:52


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