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Origyptian comment
"Honestly, Mike, when I do a google search for "malta cart ruts", I see few differences in texture between the tracks vs. outside the tracks. And when we get to other geographic locations such as Turkey, I see far less evidence of any activity between the tracks. So I'm not sure what you mean by "intellectually honest on this point". All I'm doing is looking at the images and reporting what I see.

For those few images that do show clear depressions between the ruts, how can you be so sure that those ruts depressions weren't created by humans walking between the ruts as faux road markers that were already ancient?

In my intellectually honest assessment, the evidence is far too inconsistent to automatically lump all ruts into indicating wheeled carts that were drawn by animals when only a minority of ruts show clear evidence of such depressions between them and it's not possible to age the ruts or those broader depressions.

Meanwhile, I'm still waiting to hear your explanation of how thousands of cart runs could possibly follow exactly the same path from the very first pass along a given stretch of bedrock in order to create such sharply defined ruts. How can an animal be trained to follow such a precise path each and every time? For that matter, WHY would an animal be trained to do that? Respectfully, I would assume that your engineering background allows you to recognize the problematic nature of such deep ruts in stone with a consistent width that would cause wheels to sieze on a curved path. I cannot see how anyone that's "intellectually honest" can fathom a pragmatic scenario where such a thing would happen even once, let alone the many dozens (hundreds?) of ruts we see not only in Malta but other places on the planet."

I just said that considering only Clapham Junction it was intellectually honest to conclude that the case is inconclusive due to the local messy terrain totally eroded, with so many random bumps, holes and cracks that as you said there are "few differences in texture between the tracks vs. outside the tracks".
That's all.
Now, outside Clapham and in Malta, I said there are objectively a minority of ruts pairs with traces inside and a majority without, but they exist anyway.(See book "Cart-Ruts and their impact on the Maltese landscape, page 10).It asks question but does not allow to reject totally the solution of oxcarts, whereas in the same time it requires to imagine other solutions. Moreover in some places there are both types in the same area, with and without traces inside, so what? (same book, pages 34-35).
I do not pretend all cart ruts in the world were created by repeated passages of neolithic oxcarts. I just don't know. I just speak about a place I visited, Clapham Junction, seeming to have been a quarry, and exposing just some opinions about this place. Elswhere I admit I don't know.

And in the case of Clapham Junction, I do think that tracks were defined to optimize quarry work and were first created shallow to initiate paths, then became deeper and deeper after usage.
It seem to me possible to consider that the cutting benches I saw were not deeply cut, maybe only one layer so that after a series of blocks transported down along one track (with brake system and no oxen here), a second one was created parallel for next blocks series and so on.
At Clapham it seem to me possible to imagine that the tracks may have been used laden downhill and unladen uphill.
(Excellent overall twofold photo of Clapham Junction in same book pages 28-29, network of crossing benches and tracks is clearly visible, if not a solution for you, would you have another explanation? A neolithic racing place with random traces never reused?)

As for the impossibilty you see in creating such tracks by respecting precise repeated passages, it is exactly what youn can see on some roman tracks and this is exactly what people do when driving 4x4 on dirt tracks.

This being said, it is obvious that many tracks we see in Malta would require so large diameter wheels that they would generate important efforts of friction on the wheel rim in contact with the edges of rail in a little squeezed curves, leading to blocking and break, then accident. That is clear. This may explain why many ruts pairs may have been decomissioned when becoming too deep and replaced by new ones created parallel beside, which, in some places, could be reached from former ones when needed by communication nodes, so numerous in this island. That could be an explanation.
On the other hand, carts running once in very soft material can print a slightly too deep track with frictions in edges of wheel without preventing the rotation. Ok.

But why running so numerous carts or other system on soft muddy soil? Which activity could justify this hazardous transport? Catastrophe? Which one? When? Starting point, End point? It is relatively easy to concentrate on a specific technical explanation when you keep out of any connection from the historical context of the place. Please expose your global scenario, why so many people would run once along random paths on muddy soil in Malta and when?

Therefore the intellectual trap I can see here is to focus on only one solution that rules out all the others, leading us in an arbitrary dead end. I always try to avoid this situation and try to keep eyes and mind wide open. It is very difficult to build a set of mutually compatible solutions, but often, the truth may emerge from this state of mind.

Are you satisfied with these answers? I do hope, but I just can't say more and do not want to come in hard useless discussion blocking everyone on it's view without further exchanges. After all your view maybe better. Or mine. Who knows?

Michel Demaria (retired engineer, France)



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 29-Nov-17 19:26 by Mike D.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2074 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 578 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 437 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 615 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 461 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 393 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 361 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 369 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 364 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 317 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 344 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 348 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 309 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 350 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 325 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 340 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 333 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 282 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 269 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 393 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 243 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 296 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 260 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 352 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 357 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 454 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 245 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 350 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 372 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 299 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 343 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 358 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 324 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 398 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 396 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 302 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 301 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 235 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 255 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 282 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 288 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 252 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 260 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 286 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 353 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 290 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 279 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 255 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 426 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 276 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 359 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 317 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 267 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 456 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 345 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 287 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 241 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 328 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 299 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 266 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 357 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 425 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 284 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 280 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 265 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 251 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 320 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 259 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 277 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 291 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 318 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 272 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 265 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 256 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 290 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 321 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 219 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 270 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 255 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 376 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 320 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 221 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 250 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 220 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 307 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 433 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 280 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 249 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 321 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 286 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 245 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 413 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 255 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 295 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 237 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 295 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 235 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 262 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 276 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 301 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 597 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 288 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 288 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 275 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 526 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 315 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 278 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 289 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 327 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59


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