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Mike D Wrote:
> And after, please see my answer to Jon to clarify
> my views and state of mind:
> [url=,11
> 20291,1124920#msg-1124920]Answer to Jon
> Ellison[/url]

Thanks. I was worried, after I posted my reply above, that it might seem I was attacking you or your views. I want to stress that was not my intention. I wanted to criticize the paper a bit, mostly for what I saw as methodological problems.

> To me, even if I am not opposed to the theory of
> very, very old imprints on soft clay that turn out
> solid afterwards, I don't think it can apply to
> the case of Malta, although they must also be old,
> before catastrophes in the Mediterranean, may be
> contemporary of Atlantis, not impossible to me.

Ok. I appreciate the fact that you have been there and seen these features in person, which is vastly different from any amount of photo browsing. I haven't seen the ruts in person(yet. my plan is to win the lottery) so I can only theorize from my armchair, hah.

Mostly, this argument for me has centered on the problem of precision in rut creation. Clapham Junction, from the photos, sort of looks like the starting line of a huge off-road race: lots of basically parallel ruts in messy mud that appear to head straight off a cliff edge or some sort of precipitous drop. The ruts are heavily eroded but appear to be roughly uniform in cross section, and are generally much wider than the width of a cart wheel. These ruts, therefore, are not really precise, like some of the Maltese ruts seem to be....deep and narrow, the width of a single cart wheel(or perhaps a tiny bit wider).
To me it is these narrow ruts that seem unlikely to be anything other than ruts made in soft material that later hardened, because the precision seems to be too great to be a result of multiple cart crossings.

Again, I haven't been there so this is based on a limited perspective.

> Considering that more wet paleo climate may have
> helped the wear of tracks, I am thinking here to
> Robert Soch claims about the water erosion of
> Gizah Sphinx.

Understood. Remember tho that Schoch estimated a thousand years of torrential rains were necessary to cause the water erosion features seen in the Sphinx enclosure. Again, it is hard for me to reconcile this with the concept of the passage of carts as an erosional force.

However, in the interim since posting my reply and now, I have thought of a few possibilities I want to run by you(and anyone else who is reading this).

One possibility is that the precise ruts could maybe have been made by carts moving across stone [i]if the drivers of the carts intended for them to be made[/i] for whatever reason. If they intended ruts to form, they could maybe have paid close attention to each passage and tried to keep the wheels on the exact same path so as to cut the ruts. I'm not sure why this would be a desired outcome but I think it is much more plausible if ruts were intended than for them to have formed accidentally.

Another possibility is that, at the time of the passage of these carts, there existed atop the bare rock we now see, some amount of clay or thick mud. A single passage of a cart through this material would cut ruts into it down to the bedrock. If the material then dried and hardened, the ruts made by the first cart could constrain the passages of any other carts so that they always crossed in the same place on the limestone, eventually wearing it down. Maybe. More rain would probably mess this up however.

> Now, to answer your question: [quote="Tsurugi
> question:"]
> That said, your observations of quarry features
> around rut "hubs" is very interesting. Question:
> is there anything you noticed that definitely
> makes the quarry features and the ruts
> contemporary?
> [/quote]
> I cannot say definitely, not being a geologist,
> nor a quarry expert. But being an engineer
> familiar with technical and production questions,
> Clapham Junction looked to me a very old (stones
> wear, ground erosion) and well organised quarry.
> In the beginning it seems just to be a mess with
> random "cart ruts". And little by little you begin
> to understand the overall pattern, but it comes
> gradually.
> On the sides of the ruts areas are clear patches
> of rock extraction patterns, but they don't lie
> beside ruts and maybe are younger than ruts. Maybe
> Punic, Greek, Roman.
> But in the end I realized that in several ruts
> areas we were walking on man-made artificially
> levelled parallel strips of rocky terrain, all
> flat (and inclined), all of same limited height
> and width.
> The idea of cutting benches became pregnant. And
> then I realized that they were all crossed by
> parallel cart ruts, and the crossing angle was
> constant. It seem to me that cutting benches were
> following geological sedimentary layers to
> optimize rock quality, whereas ruts direction was
> defined to optimize a constant tracks slope.
> No evidence of course. I visited this site more as
> a tourist than as a specialist, I did not check
> every square inch of terrain, I missed a lot of
> zones. In addition, I confess I should have had
> accurate maps, google earth prints and a compass,
> or a GPS. Unfortunately, as a good tourist, I only
> had my camera, and a limited sight at man's
> height.
> Definitely, this site should be mapped to
> professionaly check if it was a quarry with
> tracks, yes or no.

Again I appreciate your eyewitness account and impressions. I don't have any argument with anything you've said here, and agree that professionals(masons and quarrymen, not archaeologists) should evaluate these sites.

Options: ReplyQuote

Subject Views Written By Posted
Clapham Junction Malta 2148 Rstevens1701 16-Oct-17 15:26
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 617 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 18:45
this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 471 Racho 16-Oct-17 22:45
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 661 Tsurugi 17-Oct-17 04:55
Not carts. 492 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 07:14
Re: Not carts. 429 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:00
Re: Not carts. 400 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 20:17
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 399 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 07:28
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 399 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 08:29
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 350 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 15:08
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 377 Jon Ellison 17-Oct-17 16:56
ships on land 383 molder 17-Oct-17 22:43
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 334 molder 18-Oct-17 12:22
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 381 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 13:00
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 356 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 17:23
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 372 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 18:26
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 369 Jon Ellison 18-Oct-17 19:01
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 313 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:44
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 306 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:36
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 426 molder 08-Nov-17 10:34
Re: ships on land thousands of slaves dug tracks at corinth 281 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 05:55
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 327 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 01:53
Re: this is at odds with Newearth/Russian scientist findings/conclusions 291 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:47
Black Tracks 385 Barbelo 19-Oct-17 01:59
Re: Black Tracks 391 randompHactor 19-Oct-17 02:16
Re: Black Tracks 487 Barbelo 21-Oct-17 00:20
Re: Black Tracks 274 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 03:51
Turkey Tracks 379 Barbelo 17-Oct-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 403 Origyptian 17-Oct-17 23:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 332 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 02:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 375 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 02:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 391 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 03:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 362 Origyptian 18-Oct-17 04:22
Re: Turkey Tracks 431 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 05:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 433 Barbelo 18-Oct-17 23:54
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 339 Jon Ellison 19-Oct-17 01:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 2 340 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 19:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 267 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 04:07
Re: Turkey Tracks 284 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 05:00
Re: Turkey Tracks 313 Tsurugi 07-Nov-17 18:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 320 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 19:15
Re: Turkey Tracks 278 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 19:20
Re: Turkey Tracks 289 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:03
Re: Turkey Tracks 320 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 20:12
Re: Turkey Tracks 384 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 20:34
Re: Turkey Tracks 326 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 21:21
Re: Turkey Tracks 309 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:44
Re: Turkey Tracks 287 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 22:51
Re: Turkey Tracks 460 Origyptian 07-Nov-17 22:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 311 Jon Ellison 07-Nov-17 23:52
Re: Turkey Tracks 390 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:38
Re: Turkey Tracks 358 Jon Ellison 08-Nov-17 09:58
Re: Turkey Tracks 310 Tsurugi 09-Nov-17 02:40
Re: Turkey Tracks 490 Jon Ellison 09-Nov-17 08:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 381 Tsurugi 25-Nov-17 08:10
Re: Turkey Tracks 323 Mike D 26-Nov-17 16:57
Re: Turkey Tracks 271 Jon Ellison 26-Nov-17 18:08
Re: Turkey Tracks 366 Mike D 27-Nov-17 09:47
Re: Turkey Tracks 333 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:16
Re: Turkey Tracks 296 Barbelo 07-Nov-17 21:26
Re: Turkey Tracks 398 Tsurugi 08-Nov-17 08:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 301 Anonymous User 07-Nov-17 22:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 474 Mike D 25-Nov-17 13:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 319 molder 25-Nov-17 20:51
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 323 Mike D 26-Nov-17 12:46
The Diolkos 299 molder 26-Nov-17 21:36
Re: The Diolkos 286 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 356 Mike D 26-Nov-17 13:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 298 Tsurugi 27-Nov-17 09:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 309 Mike D 27-Nov-17 10:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 325 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 11:07
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 367 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:27
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 302 Jon Ellison 27-Nov-17 18:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 298 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 291 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 11:03
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 350 Mike D 28-Nov-17 11:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 304 Jon Ellison 28-Nov-17 13:43
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 368 Mike D 28-Nov-17 14:55
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 246 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 16:05
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 301 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:22
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 288 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 03:16
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 441 Mike D 29-Nov-17 09:54
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 351 Origyptian 29-Nov-17 15:06
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 253 Mike D 30-Nov-17 11:25
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 279 Jon Ellison 30-Nov-17 12:41
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 247 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 13:56
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 342 Mike D 30-Nov-17 14:11
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 466 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 15:32
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 316 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:49
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 282 Mike D 28-Nov-17 18:28
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 358 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 04:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 319 Mike D 28-Nov-17 10:46
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 277 Origyptian 27-Nov-17 15:48
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 465 Mike D 27-Nov-17 16:40
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 305 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 05:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 334 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:50
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Origyptian 28-Nov-17 15:34
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 346 Mike D 29-Nov-17 18:23
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 266 Origyptian 30-Nov-17 05:15
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 302 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 05:09
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 309 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:44
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 343 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:18
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 657 Audrey 28-Nov-17 03:14
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 330 Mike D 28-Nov-17 09:39
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 342 Tsurugi 28-Nov-17 18:30
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 308 molder 28-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 566 molder 18-Nov-17 22:20
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 347 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:35
Re: Clapham Junction Malta 310 Mike D 23-Nov-17 21:46
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 332 molder 30-Nov-17 05:22
Re: Chariot Tracks on The Streets of Pompeii 367 Mike D 30-Nov-17 10:59

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