Audrey Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Corpuscles Wrote:
> --------------------------------------------------
> -----
> > Audrey, I am aware this has been answered
> several
> > times before directly to your questions.
>
> It has never been answered on this board.
>
> > Do you think somehow that as of 1837 the Khufu
> > cartouche was not known?
> > If so, i.e. not known, how could Vyse
> > possibly forge it?
> >
> > Does "Rosellini's 'I monumenti dell'Egitto e
> della
> > Nubia' vol. 1 (1832)" ring any bells?
>
> You don't understand my question either.
>

Hi Audrey

The original question you posed was:

Quote
Audrey
Pretend Vyse never found markings in G1, pretend they don't exist. Set aside your convictions (if
possible) and tell us how.... of all the cartouches found on the plateau....anyone would know which one belonged to the builder of G1? HOW could one tell if a particular cartouche was Cheops/Suphis?

Later you re-asked Thanos by suggesting your 2nd thought experiment:

Quote
Audrey
A thought experiment : forget about Vyse and his Khufu cartouche in Campbells. Pretend it doesn't exist.
In 1837 the cartouche of the builder of G1 was known, obviously because Vyse wrote it in his journal. At some point before 1837, it was determined which cartouche belonged to the builder of G1.
Of all the cartouches on the Giza plateau, how did they know WHICH one belonged to the builder of G1? How did they know this in 1835 before Vyse arrived? If he had never found the chamber, would they have gone on with the belief that chick+viper+chick+circle was the name of the builder or the pharaoh of G1?

In Thanos/ Lee's wonderfully diplomatic and courteous, polite, brilliant response (worthy of you reading several times!) he answered including this part:

Quote
Thanos5150
The oldest association I know relating "Suphis" (Cheops) with "Khufu" is from 1834 (1832?), I monumenti dell'Egitto e della Nubia, which Scott notes in his latest book. The question is how did Rosellini come to this conclusion?

(Note he was correcting me about the date 1834 likely not 1832.)

The general tone of your response to me tends to indicate major distrust to Egptology's ability to decipher hieroglyphs. "How did they know it was a "Horus" name etc.

So again, despite somewhat intimidated by many very accomplished philologists making appearance in this thread, I offer a rank amateur laymans suggestion of the 'back to basics' . Maybe better or corrected answers might follow:

You know already the key to deciphering the hieroglyphs was Thomas Young and J F Champollion's work on the Rosetta stone.

Perhaps you didn't know that the starting point was the cartouche of Ptolemy V (Young) and Cleopatra and Ramesses (Champollion) Entertaining 15min video explaining it.

The next key was that Rosetta had same thing written Greek, Demotic and hieroglyphs.
Champollion made the link between spoken coptic language and commonality betwen demotic hieratic and hieroglyphs.

Now you already know Herodotus and Diodorus were Greek and called the person the native Egyptian priests claimed built G1 as Cheops. Manetho called him in his Egyptian, bordering on arabic, dialect "Suphis". Same bloke similar stories.

All that was required given Greek had been matched to hieroglyphs was to translate Cheops (Greek) into "Khufu" sieve chick serpent chick.

I Rossellini led a joint expedition with Champollion to Egypt 1828-29. They both were obsessed with cartouches (clear from the Rosetta stone that cartouche meant "king" in greek) and finding all the legendary (known only by oral stories) Pharoah names written in Egygt, and creating some form of timeline history.

Rossellini published, Champollion had met premature death, obsessed with Egypt Europe in particular Britain and France, then Vyses contacts in British museum would know of the spelling of "Khufu" and whilst Vyse obviously could not read the language would have been almost certainly acquainted with what cartouche to look for on the Giza plateau.

Now, the assignment of Khufu to being the builder is NOT restricted to Vyses find in Campbells chamber. Although at the time a major confirmation of things written by AE in generations many dynasty's after.
I agree it doesn't prove he built it but it would take me writing near a book/10,000 word paper length post to highlight all the links which have subsequently been found to link Khufu with G1. I suggest you take up Thanos recommendation to keep your suspicion of LC separate from learning the basis of why "ortho's" believe or hold, and thoroughly investigate those links. When you put your mind to it , you are a more capable researcher than I would ever claim to be.

As Thanos clearly put, the jug /goat guy "Khnum Khuf" would be the pick of most likely candidate if one was to rely on the graffiti solely. However based on the consistency of many kings having nomens and pre-nomens we now are reasonably certain that it the same king!

Why would Vyse fake 10 jug/goat cartouches in multiple chambers when he must have known it was circle/chick etc guy he (and all of academic Europe) was wanting to achieve everlasting fame and credit for discovering?

Cheers



Edited 1 time(s). Last edit at 12-Apr-17 00:43 by Corpuscles.