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Jon Ellison Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------
> Hi Racho.
>
> If you don't mind me chiming in.
>
> The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in
> that what were looking at here are tooling
> signatures.
> Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some
> less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
> Anyway that aside..
>
> Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.
>
> The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are
> thrown around on here seemingly without proper
> regard for what they actually are, how they
> function, and more importantly what signature they
> leave behind.
>
> Three kinds of tools.
> There's more and and also grey areas, but let's
> just look at the main three for now.
>
> Class A.
> Hand tools.
> These are tools where the motive force and the
> positioning and guidance are entirely provided by
> the operator.
> Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.
>
> Class B.
> Power Tools.
> These are tools where the motive force is provided
> by other than the operator, but the tool is
> positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
> Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning
> simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.
>
> Class C.
> Machine tools.
> These are tools where both the motive force and
> the tool guidance and positioning is provided from
> a mechanical source.
> Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.
>
> Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be
> used with high precision if used along with
> precision measuring instruments.
> They generally do not leave repeating signatures.
>
> Power tools B. make life easier for the operator
> and can be used with precision, if like hand tools
> they are used along with precision measuring
> instruments.
> They leave precise repeating signatures in the
> micro domain, like for example a rotating wire
> brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but
> in the macro domain produce non precision, non
> repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered
> rotating wire brush moved by hand across a
> surface.
>
> Machine tools C. are often used with precision and
> repetition, they allow for precision placement of
> the tool and progression with great accuracy as
> they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
> Machine tools often do have an initial human input
> but rely on a mechanical datum external to the
> work piece to eliminate human error.
> They typically leave a high precision surface and
> exhibit a repeating and constant signature.
>
> Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some
> way to identifying the probable techniques
> employed from the various signatures and witness
> marks we see today.


This frame takes my breath away:



I don't see how that could be a hand-worked surface. The striations are straight, parallel, equally spaced, and I see no obvious segmentation. No overlap, no curves. It looks like a single machined surface. The only apparent deviation from perfect parallel is an optical illusion that's caused by the perspective from the camera being located toward the bottom of that tooled face. But when you compensate for the perspective viewpoint, it certainly looks like a smoking gun for a machined surface.

Alternatively, I'm wondering if it could be ancient troweled adhesive that once held a layer of valuable surface material that has since been lost or pilfered. There does seem to be a lot of relatively modern hacking amidst what clearly seems to be darker, older stonework.

______________________________________________________________
How can any of us ever know, when all we can do is think?

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3310 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 909 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 812 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 800 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 371 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 415 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 679 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 677 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 448 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 636 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 622 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 686 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 774 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 870 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 557 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 641 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 586 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 494 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 397 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 374 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 449 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 378 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 469 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 427 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 476 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 447 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 346 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 281 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 354 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 319 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 334 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 338 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 347 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 312 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 600 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 118 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 126 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 107 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 119 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 116 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 124 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 158 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 650 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 451 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 504 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 410 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 459 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 461 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 503 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 479 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 429 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 412 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 429 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 467 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 415 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 441 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 549 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 465 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 455 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 532 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 441 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 473 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 479 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 522 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 416 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 440 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 475 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 572 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 436 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 514 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 543 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 468 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 484 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 419 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 475 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 450 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 433 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 477 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 451 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 455 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 436 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 596 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 589 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 511 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 485 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 502 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 507 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 551 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 469 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 461 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 448 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 538 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 541 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 449 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 466 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 506 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 471 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 442 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 465 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 426 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 541 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 493 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 335 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 441 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 426 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 412 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 421 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 486 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 490 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 293 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 332 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 414 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 527 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 358 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 496 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 418 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 404 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 490 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 411 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 430 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 465 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 367 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 450 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 372 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 449 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 427 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 469 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 436 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 339 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 386 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 391 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 658 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 422 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 436 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 528 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 564 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 438 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 459 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 635 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 616 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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