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Hi Racho.

If you don't mind me chiming in.

The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in that what were looking at here are tooling signatures.
Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
Anyway that aside..

Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.

The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are thrown around on here seemingly without proper regard for what they actually are, how they function, and more importantly what signature they leave behind.

Three kinds of tools.
There's more and and also grey areas, but let's just look at the main three for now.

Class A.
Hand tools.
These are tools where the motive force and the positioning and guidance are entirely provided by the operator.
Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.

Class B.
Power Tools.
These are tools where the motive force is provided by other than the operator, but the tool is positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.

Class C.
Machine tools.
These are tools where both the motive force and the tool guidance and positioning is provided from a mechanical source.
Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.

Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be used with high precision if used along with precision measuring instruments.
They generally do not leave repeating signatures.

Power tools B. make life easier for the operator and can be used with precision, if like hand tools they are used along with precision measuring instruments.
They leave precise repeating signatures in the micro domain, like for example a rotating wire brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but in the macro domain produce non precision, non repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered rotating wire brush moved by hand across a surface.

Machine tools C. are often used with precision and repetition, they allow for precision placement of the tool and progression with great accuracy as they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
Machine tools often do have an initial human input but rely on a mechanical datum external to the work piece to eliminate human error.
They typically leave a high precision surface and exhibit a repeating and constant signature.

Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some way to identifying the probable techniques employed from the various signatures and witness marks we see today.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3214 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 882 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 785 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 770 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 346 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 392 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 654 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 655 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 421 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 613 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 590 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 657 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 748 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 834 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 530 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 613 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 560 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 468 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 373 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 350 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 415 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 348 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 444 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 391 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 445 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 416 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 322 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 257 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 327 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 295 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 305 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 314 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 319 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 285 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 567 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 94 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 96 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 79 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 90 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 90 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 96 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 129 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 621 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 424 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 470 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 384 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 431 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 436 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 477 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 449 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 374 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 386 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 403 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 442 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 392 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 417 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 522 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 437 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 425 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 485 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 414 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 442 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 454 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 430 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 493 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 389 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 427 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 415 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 445 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 546 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 411 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 488 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 515 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 435 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 443 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 418 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 390 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 448 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 423 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 409 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 398 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 451 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 430 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 429 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 411 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 570 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 564 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 488 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 459 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 478 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 478 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 521 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 437 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 422 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 439 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 419 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 505 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 514 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 426 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 433 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 432 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 476 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 442 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 416 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 442 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 400 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 513 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 312 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 465 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 306 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 418 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 401 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 385 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 399 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 455 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 465 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 270 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 300 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 389 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 495 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 334 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 468 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 391 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 381 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 459 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 385 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 399 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 434 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 339 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 425 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 346 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 425 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 342 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 405 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 442 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 340 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 413 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 319 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 364 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 368 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 627 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 398 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 411 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 501 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 542 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 414 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 439 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 558 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 587 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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