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Hi Racho.

If you don't mind me chiming in.

The rock hardness issue isn't an issue at all, in that what were looking at here are tooling signatures.
Some stuff is in extraordinarily hard rock, some less so, The hard stuff defies explanation.
Anyway that aside..

Tooling Signatures or Witness Marks.

The terms "machine tools", "power tools" etc. are thrown around on here seemingly without proper regard for what they actually are, how they function, and more importantly what signature they leave behind.

Three kinds of tools.
There's more and and also grey areas, but let's just look at the main three for now.

Class A.
Hand tools.
These are tools where the motive force and the positioning and guidance are entirely provided by the operator.
Examples would be a hand saw and a sewing needle.

Class B.
Power Tools.
These are tools where the motive force is provided by other than the operator, but the tool is positioned and guided entirely by the operator.
Examples would be a chain saw, a wood turning simple lathe and an electric tooth brush.

Class C.
Machine tools.
These are tools where both the motive force and the tool guidance and positioning is provided from a mechanical source.
Examples would be a machine lathe or drill press.

Hand tools A. Are hard work and although can be used with high precision if used along with precision measuring instruments.
They generally do not leave repeating signatures.

Power tools B. make life easier for the operator and can be used with precision, if like hand tools they are used along with precision measuring instruments.
They leave precise repeating signatures in the micro domain, like for example a rotating wire brush, each wire leaving its mark repeatedly, but in the macro domain produce non precision, non repeating signatures. Like the track of a powered rotating wire brush moved by hand across a surface.

Machine tools C. are often used with precision and repetition, they allow for precision placement of the tool and progression with great accuracy as they eliminate the human propensity to Err.
Machine tools often do have an initial human input but rely on a mechanical datum external to the work piece to eliminate human error.
They typically leave a high precision surface and exhibit a repeating and constant signature.

Anyways a handle on all of the above can go some way to identifying the probable techniques employed from the various signatures and witness marks we see today.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 3317 Racho 02-Apr-17 18:38
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 911 Fsbirdhouse 02-Apr-17 20:05
Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 816 Racho 04-Apr-17 14:02
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 803 Fsbirdhouse 04-Apr-17 14:51
If on purpose... 372 Racho 14-Apr-17 05:01
Re: If on purpose... 417 Origyptian 14-Apr-17 05:32
Re: Whoever operated this saw (2:30 min mark)...made a mistake 682 Origyptian 07-Apr-17 13:28
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 679 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 22:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 449 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 16:59
Re: B 4 : ) 640 Thunderbird 05-Apr-17 05:22
Re: B 4 : ) 625 Warwick 07-Apr-17 17:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 688 SandyJesse 07-Apr-17 01:30
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 776 Warwick 07-Apr-17 18:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 872 Jon Ellison 08-Apr-17 10:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 560 Warwick 08-Apr-17 17:57
if I carried out a test... 644 Racho 09-Apr-17 02:15
Re: if I carried out a test... 588 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 08:44
I did check it out :) 498 Racho 25-Apr-17 05:59
Re: I did check it out :) 398 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 14:22
Don't even need to stop to think on this... 376 Racho 25-Apr-17 15:37
Re: Don't even need to stop to think on this... 451 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 17:20
I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 380 Racho 25-Apr-17 18:07
Re: I believe you are a copper/bronze tool proponent 471 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 19:49
Would you agree... 430 Racho 25-Apr-17 20:29
Re: Would you agree... 477 Thanos5150 25-Apr-17 21:07
Re: Would you agree... 449 Origyptian 25-Apr-17 22:54
...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 348 Racho 15-Oct-17 05:46
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 282 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 14:26
precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 358 Racho 15-Oct-17 16:49
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 323 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:20
Re: precision cut at 7:08 min mark...interesting photo angle I haven't seen before 335 Jon Ellison 15-Oct-17 19:35
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 340 Origyptian 16-Oct-17 03:27
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 350 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 07:58
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 314 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 09:19
Re: ...just a lot of similarities at the 36 second mark and super telltale machine markings at 9:30 min mark 605 Jon Ellison 16-Oct-17 11:03
an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 120 Racho 20-Dec-19 20:04
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 127 Martin Stower 20-Dec-19 23:47
? 109 Racho 21-Dec-19 01:25
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 120 Open mind 21-Dec-19 02:03
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 119 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 04:19
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 127 Open mind 21-Dec-19 05:07
Re: an ancient quarry in France...same markings on side of a 'cliff' 159 Thanos5150 21-Dec-19 16:25
Re: Would you agree... 652 Corpuscles 25-Apr-17 23:56
Re: if I carried out a test... 454 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:39
Re: if I carried out a test... 506 Fsbirdhouse 09-Apr-17 22:34
Re: if I carried out a test... 411 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 23:20
could not have been 462 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:34
Re: could not have been 463 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:18
Re: could not have been 505 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:29
Re: could not have been 482 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 17:59
Re: could not have been 431 Warwick 10-Apr-17 18:48
Re: could not have been 414 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:18
Re: could not have been 431 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:34
Re: could not have been 469 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 19:55
Re: could not have been 417 Warwick 11-Apr-17 17:29
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 443 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:13
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 550 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 16:56
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Warwick 09-Apr-17 17:21
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 534 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:00
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 476 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 18:22
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 482 Warwick 09-Apr-17 18:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 458 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:02
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 523 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:41
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 419 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 18:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 461 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:03
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 443 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:17
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 476 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:48
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 574 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 20:33
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 437 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 515 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 546 Thanos5150 09-Apr-17 23:24
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 461 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 04:42
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 471 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 08:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 486 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:16
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 445 Thanos5150 10-Apr-17 15:25
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 421 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 477 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 14:44
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 452 Warwick 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 434 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:54
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 425 Warwick 10-Apr-17 16:01
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 479 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:23
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 453 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:06
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 457 Jon Ellison 10-Apr-17 16:11
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 437 Warwick 10-Apr-17 17:23
I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 597 Racho 08-Apr-17 16:54
Re: I've come to recognize that I was wrong all along 591 Warwick 08-Apr-17 18:23
Oranges and apples... 513 Racho 09-Apr-17 00:39
Re: Oranges and apples... 486 Warwick 09-Apr-17 15:59
Re: In plain sight 505 Thunderbird 10-Apr-17 19:53
It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 509 Racho 14-Apr-17 06:53
Re: It is in plain sight...or plane sight ;) 554 Thunderbird 15-Apr-17 01:31
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 470 Archae Solenhofen 09-Apr-17 16:47
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 464 Warwick 09-Apr-17 16:52
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 445 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 468 Warwick 09-Apr-17 19:53
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 450 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:09
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 543 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 19:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 541 Jon Ellison 09-Apr-17 19:59
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 452 Origyptian 09-Apr-17 20:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 15:26
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 460 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 15:46
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 507 Fsbirdhouse 10-Apr-17 18:45
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 473 Eddie Larry 10-Apr-17 18:49
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 444 Origyptian 10-Apr-17 18:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 467 Warwick 10-Apr-17 19:18
unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 427 Racho 11-Apr-17 06:22
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 543 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 09:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 338 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:32
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 495 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:38
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 336 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:11
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 442 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 14:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 427 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 14:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 413 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:27
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 422 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 15:53
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 488 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 15:55
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 490 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 16:35
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 294 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 16:49
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 333 Origyptian 11-Apr-17 19:54
once the mistake... 415 Racho 12-Apr-17 00:03
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 528 Thunderbird 12-Apr-17 04:20
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 359 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 13:14
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 497 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 17:31
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 418 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:17
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 405 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:26
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 490 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 412 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 14:43
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 430 Archae Solenhofen 11-Apr-17 18:41
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 467 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 18:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 367 Fsbirdhouse 11-Apr-17 18:48
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 451 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:00
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 373 Warwick 11-Apr-17 19:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 451 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 19:59
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 365 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 428 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:34
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 469 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:29
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 363 Warwick 11-Apr-17 20:37
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 436 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 20:45
Re: unless the cuts were being made very, very quickly... 340 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:24
science and technology...where minds come to meet 387 Racho 11-Apr-17 20:46
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 393 Jon Ellison 11-Apr-17 21:19
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 659 Archae Solenhofen 12-Apr-17 15:01
Re: science and technology...where minds come to meet 424 Warwick 12-Apr-17 17:52
43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 438 Racho 12-Apr-17 20:20
Re: 43 second mark ...anyone care to take a crack at which tools were used? 530 Origyptian 12-Apr-17 21:34
and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 564 Racho 12-Apr-17 22:54
Re: and just after 30:30 min mark..china cave - chisels did this? 440 Warwick 13-Apr-17 17:15
taking sides...I suppose so but 460 Racho 14-Apr-17 04:18
beating the dead horse... 643 Racho 20-Apr-17 06:50
Re: Carved all this out with copper tools? Hell, I'll give em hardened steel and still scratch my head 617 Notinham 11-Apr-17 01:43


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