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Warwick Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> I assume anyone who writes something in stone
> knows what they are writing

Then why did they contradict themselves over and over and over?

> they were people
>
> Just like us

Then why isn't the PT understood even after a century and a half of intensive study. No two Egyptologists even agree on what the ankh is or the origin of a single type of scepter. They can't even come up with a definition of "eye of horus" that works.

How do people write nonsense in stone and be just like us.

Man fears the pyramid, time fears man.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Imhotep 3788 Rofhessa 26-Feb-17 11:39
Re: Imhotep 665 Lee McGiffen 27-Feb-17 12:15
Re: Imhotep 776 Origyptian 27-Feb-17 15:05
Re: Imhotep 777 Thanos5150 27-Feb-17 20:39
Re: Imhotep 638 Corpuscles 28-Feb-17 07:53
Re: Imhotep 587 Rofhessa 28-Feb-17 10:34
Re: Imhotep 574 Corpuscles 28-Feb-17 21:26
Re: Imhotep 666 Rofhessa 03-Mar-17 15:30
Re: Imhotep 504 eyeofhorus33 03-Mar-17 17:04
Re: Imhotep 577 Rofhessa 05-Mar-17 19:14
Re: Imhotep 574 Thanos5150 28-Feb-17 19:07
Re: Imhotep 512 Rofhessa 28-Feb-17 10:30
Re: Imhotep 501 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 15:05
Re: Imhotep 524 cladking 28-Feb-17 17:00
Re: Imhotep 608 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 21:59
Re: Imhotep 617 cladking 28-Feb-17 23:08
Re: Imhotep 526 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 01:46
Re: Imhotep 531 cladking 01-Mar-17 15:08
Re: Imhotep 461 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 21:47
Re: Imhotep 383 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 21:58
Re: Imhotep 425 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 22:05
Re: Imhotep 442 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 22:14
Re: Imhotep 563 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 22:25
Re: Imhotep 643 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 22:30
Re: Imhotep 550 eyeofhorus33 28-Feb-17 22:52
Re: Imhotep 539 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 22:58
Re: Imhotep 454 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 03:23
Re: Imhotep 573 Corpuscles 28-Feb-17 21:53
Re: Imhotep 438 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 22:09
Re: Imhotep 582 Corpuscles 28-Feb-17 23:08
Re: Imhotep 598 Audrey 01-Mar-17 01:10
Re: Imhotep 501 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 01:56
Re: Imhotep 548 Corpuscles 01-Mar-17 04:30
Re: Imhotep 648 Audrey 01-Mar-17 05:03
Re: Imhotep 550 Corpuscles 01-Mar-17 06:36
Re: Imhotep 605 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 16:04
Re: Imhotep 502 Audrey 01-Mar-17 16:42
Re: Imhotep 506 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 04:13
Re: Imhotep 473 Audrey 01-Mar-17 01:24
Re: Imhotep 573 Thanos5150 28-Feb-17 22:39
Re: Imhotep 591 Origyptian 28-Feb-17 22:55
Re: Imhotep 458 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 03:43
Re: Imhotep 494 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 14:07
Re: Imhotep 480 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 16:52
Re: Imhotep 559 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 03:20
Re: Imhotep 579 Audrey 01-Mar-17 04:43
Re: Imhotep 513 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 14:13
Re: Imhotep 641 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 14:35
Re: Imhotep 512 cladking 01-Mar-17 15:30
Re: Imhotep 532 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 15:57
Re: Imhotep 619 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 03:36
Re: Imhotep 495 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 18:50
Re: Imhotep 462 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 21:33
Re: Imhotep 531 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 21:38
Re: Imhotep 565 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 21:56
Re: Imhotep 441 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:30
The weaselling continues. 434 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:14
Re: The weaselling continues. 558 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 22:26
Re: The weaselling continues. 503 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 22:51
Re: Imhotep 528 cladking 01-Mar-17 15:21
Re: Imhotep 561 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 15:50
Re: Imhotep 540 cladking 01-Mar-17 17:08
Re: Imhotep 404 Thanos5150 01-Mar-17 16:11
Re: Imhotep 430 cladking 01-Mar-17 16:30
Re: Imhotep 537 Thanos5150 01-Mar-17 17:18
Re: Imhotep 514 cladking 01-Mar-17 17:23
Re: Imhotep 575 sfbey 01-Mar-17 17:57
Re: Imhotep 523 cladking 01-Mar-17 19:31
Re: Imhotep 468 Corpuscles 01-Mar-17 21:53
Re: Imhotep 480 cladking 02-Mar-17 01:26
Utterance #373 580 cladking 02-Mar-17 01:52
Re: Utterance #373 504 Corpuscles 02-Mar-17 19:23
Re: Utterance #373 460 cladking 02-Mar-17 19:33
Re: Imhotep 552 cladking 01-Mar-17 16:44
Re: Imhotep 526 Thanos5150 01-Mar-17 19:32
Re: Imhotep 432 cladking 01-Mar-17 19:54
Re: Imhotep 581 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 16:26
Re: Imhotep 464 cladking 01-Mar-17 17:19
Re: Imhotep 496 Audrey 01-Mar-17 17:07
Re: Imhotep 439 Origyptian 01-Mar-17 17:23
Re: Imhotep 474 cladking 01-Mar-17 17:42
Re: Imhotep 558 Audrey 01-Mar-17 18:10
Great Post 544 cladking 01-Mar-17 19:45
Re: Imhotep 519 Martin Stower 01-Mar-17 23:05
Re: Imhotep 705 Thanos5150 01-Mar-17 18:12
Re: Imhotep 582 Audrey 02-Mar-17 06:48
Re: Imhotep 478 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 11:32
Re: Imhotep 442 Audrey 02-Mar-17 16:51
Re: Imhotep 474 cladking 02-Mar-17 17:04
Imhotep's Sandals. 491 cladking 02-Mar-17 17:09
Re: Imhotep 383 Martin Stower 02-Mar-17 18:58
Re: Imhotep 448 Thanos5150 02-Mar-17 18:10
Re: Imhotep 527 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 18:19
Re: Imhotep 396 Thanos5150 02-Mar-17 18:40
Re: Imhotep 392 Origyptian 02-Mar-17 19:01
Re: Imhotep 604 Thanos5150 03-Mar-17 17:48
Re: Imhotep 577 Origyptian 03-Mar-17 21:19
Re: Imhotep 461 eyeofhorus33 03-Mar-17 22:28
Re: Imhotep 489 Origyptian 03-Mar-17 22:48
Re: Imhotep 457 Martin Stower 04-Mar-17 00:18
Re: Imhotep 376 Origyptian 04-Mar-17 02:40
Re: Imhotep 471 Martin Stower 04-Mar-17 03:38
Re: Imhotep 645 Thanos5150 04-Mar-17 02:33
Re: Imhotep 660 Origyptian 04-Mar-17 04:34
Re: Imhotep 550 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 01:55
Re: Imhotep 503 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 02:28
Re: Imhotep 705 Audrey 04-Mar-17 07:43
Re: Imhotep 651 Thanos5150 04-Mar-17 22:59
Re: Imhotep 497 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 01:05
Re: Imhotep 386 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 02:00
Re: Imhotep 678 Audrey 05-Mar-17 04:56
Re: Imhotep 411 Origyptian 05-Mar-17 05:32
Re: Imhotep 537 Audrey 05-Mar-17 23:51
Re: Imhotep 628 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 06:23
Re: Imhotep 478 Martin Stower 05-Mar-17 15:22
Re: Imhotep 511 Thanos5150 05-Mar-17 16:14
Re: Imhotep 667 Audrey 06-Mar-17 02:50
Re: Imhotep 536 Thanos5150 06-Mar-17 05:38
Re: Imhotep 536 R Avry Wilson 06-Mar-17 07:06
Re: Imhotep 645 DUNE 06-Mar-17 14:49
Re: Imhotep 477 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 20:33
Re: Imhotep 442 DUNE 06-Mar-17 21:22
Re: Imhotep 578 Origyptian 06-Mar-17 21:38
Re: Imhotep 391 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 22:17
Re: Imhotep 394 Jon Ellison 06-Mar-17 22:12
Re: Imhotep 569 Thanos5150 06-Mar-17 23:32
Re: Imhotep 539 DUNE 06-Mar-17 23:56
Re: Imhotep 442 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 00:27
Re: Imhotep 433 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 01:07
Re: Imhotep 420 Jon Ellison 07-Mar-17 01:16
Re: Imhotep 832 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 01:40
Re: Imhotep 537 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 01:58
Re: Imhotep 532 DUNE 07-Mar-17 16:49
Re: Imhotep 537 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 19:24
Re: Imhotep 484 Thanos5150 07-Mar-17 20:30
Re: Imhotep 591 Corpuscles 07-Mar-17 02:23
Re: Imhotep 539 Origyptian 07-Mar-17 04:45
Re: Imhotep 538 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 11:11
Re: Imhotep 493 Origyptian 07-Mar-17 13:16
Re: Imhotep 570 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 15:45
Re: Imhotep 509 Origyptian 07-Mar-17 16:44
Re: Imhotep 559 Martin Stower 07-Mar-17 18:40
Re: Imhotep 602 Corpuscles 07-Mar-17 21:53
Re: Imhotep 377 cladking 08-Mar-17 15:13
Re: Imhotep 621 Origyptian 08-Mar-17 16:29
Re: Imhotep 459 cladking 08-Mar-17 18:12
Re: Imhotep 549 Audrey 09-Mar-17 01:16
Interpretation vs Communication. 401 cladking 09-Mar-17 14:33
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 449 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 14:55
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 371 cladking 09-Mar-17 15:16
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 478 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 16:32
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 495 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 15:17
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 489 cladking 09-Mar-17 15:39
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 737 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 16:04
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 533 cladking 09-Mar-17 16:27
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 513 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 16:47
You Do the Math. 481 cladking 09-Mar-17 19:32
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 402 cladking 09-Mar-17 19:10
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 617 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 20:25
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 396 cladking 09-Mar-17 21:22
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 485 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 22:11
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 550 cladking 10-Mar-17 01:34
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 466 SandyJesse 11-Mar-17 02:15
Re: Interpretation vs Communication. 557 SandyJesse 10-Mar-17 00:31
In order to build the great pyramids... 456 Racho 10-Mar-17 01:14
Re: Imhotep 497 Corpuscles 08-Mar-17 18:18
Re: Imhotep 529 Martin Stower 08-Mar-17 19:15
Re: Imhotep 486 Origyptian 08-Mar-17 22:53
Re: Imhotep 439 Martin Stower 09-Mar-17 00:33
Re: Imhotep 383 Origyptian 09-Mar-17 03:35
Re: Imhotep 457 Jon Ellison 09-Mar-17 14:53
Re: Imhotep 377 Audrey 10-Mar-17 00:51
Re: Imhotep 494 Jon Ellison 10-Mar-17 03:42
Re: Imhotep 567 Audrey 11-Mar-17 06:22
Re: Imhotep 621 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 11:22
Re: Imhotep 522 Audrey 12-Mar-17 02:40
Re: Imhotep 408 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 03:25
Re: Imhotep 447 Audrey 12-Mar-17 04:55
Re: Imhotep 563 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 13:14
Re: Imhotep 408 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:12
Re: Imhotep 358 cladking 12-Mar-17 04:03
Re: Imhotep 490 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 04:07
Re: Imhotep 424 cladking 12-Mar-17 14:03
Re: Imhotep 435 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 15:10
Who Knew? 414 cladking 12-Mar-17 19:26
Re: Who Knew? 410 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:05
Re: Imhotep 518 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 16:33
Re: Imhotep 501 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 16:53
Re: Imhotep 374 cladking 12-Mar-17 19:30
Re: Imhotep 469 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 07:03
Re: Imhotep 383 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 15:33
Re: Imhotep 416 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 18:13
Re: Imhotep 414 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 18:53
Re: Imhotep 483 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 19:33
Re: Imhotep 391 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:50
Re: Imhotep 422 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 23:24
Re: Imhotep 472 Corpuscles 12-Mar-17 23:44
Re: Imhotep 497 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 01:21
Re: Imhotep 447 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 00:26
Re: Imhotep 453 Warwick 13-Mar-17 13:53
Re: Imhotep 446 cladking 13-Mar-17 13:59
Re: Imhotep 461 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 14:16
Re: Imhotep 425 Warwick 13-Mar-17 14:26
Re: Imhotep 470 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 16:40
Re: Imhotep 372 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:43
Re: Imhotep 456 cladking 13-Mar-17 17:18
Re: Imhotep 471 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 17:24
Re: Imhotep 439 cladking 13-Mar-17 18:26
Re: Imhotep 400 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:42
Re: Imhotep 491 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 20:39
Re: Imhotep 392 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:39
Re: Imhotep 489 Origyptian 11-Mar-17 14:03
Re: Imhotep 465 Merrell 11-Mar-17 14:29
Re: Imhotep 437 cladking 11-Mar-17 15:03
Re: Imhotep 393 Merrell 11-Mar-17 15:27
Re: Imhotep 434 cladking 11-Mar-17 15:35
Re: Imhotep 462 Merrell 11-Mar-17 16:15
Re: Imhotep 423 cladking 11-Mar-17 18:52
Re: Imhotep 425 Origyptian 11-Mar-17 15:53
Re: Imhotep 555 Thanos5150 11-Mar-17 17:27
Re: Imhotep 435 Warwick 11-Mar-17 17:43
Re: Imhotep 436 Origyptian 11-Mar-17 20:13
Re: Imhotep 482 Warwick 11-Mar-17 20:34
Re: Imhotep 445 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 00:45
Re: Imhotep 583 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 02:49
Re: Funerary Cult 384 Thunderbird 13-Mar-17 05:02
Re: Funerary Cult 371 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 21:31
Re: Funerary Cult 352 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 22:04
Re: Funerary Cult 397 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 22:30
Re: Funerary Cult 397 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 23:51
Re: Funerary Cult 341 Origyptian 14-Mar-17 02:54
Re: Funerary Cult 403 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 09:23
Re: Funerary Cult 288 Origyptian 14-Mar-17 14:01
Re: Funerary Cult 398 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 21:35
Re: Funerary Cult 308 Origyptian 14-Mar-17 23:55
Re: Funerary Cult 426 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 01:24
Re: Funerary Cult 452 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 03:26
Re: Funerary Cult 329 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 13:00
Re: Funerary Cult 490 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 13:34
Re: Funerary Cult 401 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 14:32
Re: Funerary Cult 264 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 15:38
Re: Funerary Cult 350 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 16:06
Re: Funerary Cult 372 Corpuscles 15-Mar-17 16:51
Re: Funerary Cult 226 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 17:08
Re: Funerary Cult 415 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 19:24
Re: Funerary Cult 373 Merrell 15-Mar-17 21:40
Re: Funerary Cult 273 Origyptian 16-Mar-17 00:12
Re: Funerary Cult 401 Martin Stower 16-Mar-17 00:53
Re: Funerary Cult 258 Warwick 15-Mar-17 19:01
Re: Funerary Cult 344 eyeofhorus33 15-Mar-17 18:19
Re: Funerary Cult 360 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 20:22
Re: Funerary Cult 294 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 21:27
Re: Funerary Cult 438 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 21:48
Re: Funerary Cult 470 R Avry Wilson 16-Mar-17 02:08
Re: Funerary Cult 344 Warwick 15-Mar-17 18:48
Re: Funerary Cult 291 Origyptian 15-Mar-17 20:19
Re: Funerary Cult 427 Martin Stower 15-Mar-17 20:23
Re: Funerary Cult 213 Warwick 15-Mar-17 21:08
Re: Funerary Cult 375 Audrey 14-Mar-17 02:55
Re: Funerary Cult 425 Thanos5150 14-Mar-17 05:30
Re: Funerary Cult 341 Warwick 14-Mar-17 18:12
Re: Half cartouche. 301 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 12:14
Re: Half cartouche. 346 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 12:43
Re: Half cartouche. 310 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 12:56
Re: Half cartouche. 289 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 13:37
Re: Half cartouche. 331 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 13:42
Re: Half cartouche. 302 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 15:00
Re: Half cartouche. 270 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 15:52
Re: Half cartouche. 402 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 16:34
Re: Half cartouche. 544 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 17:19
Re: Half cartouche. 437 Martin Stower 14-Mar-17 20:07
Re: Half cartouche. 360 Jon Ellison 14-Mar-17 22:50
Re: Imhotep 421 Warwick 13-Mar-17 14:00
Re: Imhotep 421 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 14:10
Re: Imhotep 443 Merrell 13-Mar-17 15:22
Re: Imhotep 229 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:30
Re: Imhotep 304 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 15:35
Re: Imhotep 339 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 15:51
Re: Imhotep 281 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:58
Re: Imhotep 280 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 16:10
Re: Imhotep 337 Merrell 13-Mar-17 18:27
Re: Imhotep 355 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:31
Re: Imhotep 361 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 18:40
Re: Imhotep 290 Warwick 13-Mar-17 18:48
Re: Imhotep 434 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 20:17
Re: Imhotep 241 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:50
Re: Imhotep 328 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:57
Re: Imhotep 362 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 18:10
Re: Imhotep 279 Warwick 13-Mar-17 19:28
Re: Imhotep 330 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 19:54
Re: Imhotep 254 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 15:48
Re: Imhotep 426 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:28
Re: Imhotep 257 Warwick 13-Mar-17 16:40
Re: Imhotep 385 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 19:15
Re: Imhotep 228 Warwick 13-Mar-17 19:22
Re: Imhotep 307 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 20:30
Re: Imhotep 459 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 21:06
Re: Imhotep 261 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 21:29
Re: Imhotep 314 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 21:34
Re: Imhotep 287 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 22:01
Re: Imhotep 399 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 22:41
Re: Imhotep 265 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 23:43
Re: Imhotep 354 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 12:42
Re: Imhotep 269 Thanos5150 13-Mar-17 16:42
Re: Imhotep 416 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 15:02
Re: Imhotep 358 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Imhotep 432 Thanos5150 11-Mar-17 21:19
Re: Imhotep 450 Martin Stower 11-Mar-17 22:12
Re: Imhotep 436 Audrey 12-Mar-17 00:24
Re: Imhotep 405 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 00:55
Re: Imhotep 444 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 01:41
Re: Imhotep 402 Audrey 12-Mar-17 02:30
Re: Imhotep 521 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 07:02
Re: Imhotep 346 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 08:49
Re: Imhotep 308 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 16:52
Re: Imhotep 319 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 21:10
Re: Imhotep 254 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:02
Re: Imhotep 287 Origyptian 12-Mar-17 22:16
Re: Imhotep 331 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 23:51
Re: Imhotep 371 Origyptian 14-Mar-17 04:04
Re: Imhotep 275 Audrey 12-Mar-17 19:54
Re: Imhotep 348 Thanos5150 12-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Imhotep 361 Martin Stower 12-Mar-17 22:37
Re: Imhotep 277 Audrey 12-Mar-17 23:58
Re: Imhotep 398 Martin Stower 13-Mar-17 00:20
Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 304 Corpuscles 12-Mar-17 19:58
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 400 cladking 12-Mar-17 20:06
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 344 Corpuscles 12-Mar-17 21:07
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 248 cladking 12-Mar-17 22:32
Re: Papyri Wadi el-Jarf 281 Warwick 13-Mar-17 15:38
...In a Million Years. 407 cladking 13-Mar-17 17:36
Re: ...In a Million Years. 242 Warwick 13-Mar-17 17:57
Re: ...In a Million Years. 461 cladking 13-Mar-17 18:33
I will give you one last chance 281 Warwick 13-Mar-17 19:34
Re: I will give you one last chance 356 cladking 13-Mar-17 20:34
Re: ...In a Million Years. 290 Origyptian 13-Mar-17 20:10