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Thanos5150 Wrote:
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> A sarcophagus without
> inscription is basically worthless to the dead.
> Without it its just a box to put dead bodies in.
> Not cool.

The AE disagree, before the 6th dyn inscriptions on sarcophagi and coffins are the exception, not the rule.

> > If you take the
> > pyramid out of the pyramid-complex when
> comparing
> > them to mastabas it goes without saying that
> you
> > won't find them (=reliefs, decoration and texts).
>
> This is nonsense as there is no reason, regardless
> of what is on the mortuary temple or not, you
> would nothing inside the pyramids if tombs.

Nonsense? Quite the contrary:
Why should we find decoration in corridors and burial chambers of the pyramids when we don't find them in the shafts / corridors and burial chambers of the mastabas of the same period?

> > The mortuary temple is the royal
> > version of the chapel found in or attached to
> the
> > mastaba.
>

> "There is enough of the G2 and G3 mortuary and
> valley temples, regardless of plundering, to make
> it abundantly clear they were never covered in
> reliefs. Nor the Sphinx temple for that matter.
> This is why until the excavation of the Sneferu's
> Bent pyramid valley temple Egyptologists were of
> the mind adorning pyramid complex temples was not
> even practiced in the 4th Dynasty. Bent does not
> have a "mortuary temple" per se', but rather a
> small unadorned relatively pathetic cult chapel
> that abuts it which seems a contradiction of
> workmanship and scale compared to the pyramid
> itself. The Red pyramid mortuary temple is
> virtually non-existent and was of such a limited
> scope and craftsmanship Egyptologists explain this
> by suggesting it was "built in a hurry" or never
> even completed. There is no evidence of a causeway
> leading from the mortuary temple to the valley
> temple, suggesting it was never built, and it is
> questionable whether it ever had a valley temple
> either. There is a small unadorned pedestrian
> chapel at Meidum but no evidence of any valley
> temple.
>
> So, in reality what you have are the massive
> unadorned temples at Giza and the small and poorly
> constructed adorned temples attributed to Sneferu
> who built at least 3 if not 5 pyramids in all.
> Immediately after Giza, at the very beginning of
> the 5th Dynasty, we find lavishly adorned funerary
> temples littered with reliefs which now also
> suddenly incorporate beautifully carved and
> designed round granite columns prior to which,
> except at Saqqara, were stark and square.
>
> Is there really a direct connection between the
> temples at Giza and those that came directly
> before and after? I don't think so. As far as the
> Khufu reliefs are concerned, if all the other
> temples at Giza are any indication one could
> assume they were part of a pedestrian valley
> temple added after the fact by Khufu akin to what
> is found at Dahshur.
>
> I would also note that the fragments of reliefs
> found at Dashur and those attributed to Khufu are
> largely of the kings participation in the Sed
> Festival which is not a funerary rite, but rather
> a rejuvenation and commemoration ceremony held
> after 30yrs of rule repeated every 3yrs after. One
> has to wonder if the temple was built in honor of
> this achievement while living rather than to
> remember the accomplishment after death. Instead
> of a Rolex, they got a temple."

> So there's that little problem too.

G1 had reliefs, G2 and G3 had a statuary program.
Ideological priciples could have been realized in different, partly interchangeable forms; relief vs. statuary program; Khufu vs. Khafre - Menkaure.
There were no basic rules yet during the 4th dyn, it was a time of experimentation; standardisation of the royal funarary complex took only place in the 5th dyn. Since no more big pyramids were built, emphasis was laid on the funerary temple and it's decoration.

An interesting M.A. thesis concerning relief decoration in the Old Kingdom royal complexes:
Link

> > Inscriptions on sarcophagi are not very common
> in
> > the OK
>
> You sure about that?

Yep, as I said above inscriptions on sarcophagi are uncommon until the 6th dyn.

> > and when they occur they record only the
> > owner's name and titles.
>
> So the dead could find it and return each day.
>
> > Most sarcophagi are still
> > "blank"; a name is not required by AE religion.
>
> Most are not "blank" and it is required. There is
> a reason some are blank, i.e. not dedicated, not
> just whim-the most likely reason being they were
> unfinished a la mastaba 17 at Meidum. Or in the
> case of the pyramid because they were never
> intended to have a body in the 1st place.

But still, mastaba 17 was used for burial, so you have to ask yourself; what were the basic rules / minimal requirements for a burial? Apparantly you seem to think that this includes inscriptions on a sarcophagus or coffin and must have reliefs or texts in chapels, corridors and chambers. That's asking way to much and not consistent at all with the evidence. The evidence tells us that the minimal requirements were a resting place for the body (and equipment) and a place for offerings to the dead.

> > In fact reliefs,paintings, and writings all
> over
> > the walls in mastabas aren't required by AE
> > religion either;
>
> Yes they are.

No, not at all (see above and below).

> > near the end of Sneferu's reign decoration of
> the
> > chapel's was reduced, no more scenes of
> crafsmen
> > and farmers.
>
> The exact opposite is true. Can you give
> one example of a mastaba or chapel
> prior to Sneferu that is decorated?

Of course; and i'll give you two:

Two mastabas from the 3th dyn:
Mastaba of Hesyra: decorated wooden panels and paintings of offerings
Mastaba of Kha-Baw-Sokar: one of the earliest mastabas with a relief decorated chapel and a serdab
Link

> > At the beginning of Khufu's reign
> > decoration is still more reduced;
>
> Give examples of mastabas we can quantify as
> belonging to the "beginnings of Khufu's reign".
> Ironically, among other reasons this part part of
> why I argue in
> [url=http://grahamhancock.com/phorum/read.php?1,10
> 54082]The Mastabas of Meidum- A New
> Perspective[/url] the Meidum mastabas attributed
> to Nefermaat I of Rahotep at Meidum are not 4th
> Dynasty because their interiors are so elaborately
> adorned.

I see no reason to doubt the attribution of these mastabas to the early reign of Sneferu.
An example of the more reduced style in the later reign of Sneferu at Dashur:
Mastaba of prince Netjeraperef: Two inscribed stelae (only one preserved)similar to the setup of the Stelae sanctuaries at Meydum and the Bent at Dashur. Fragments of a decorated false door have also been found. But no more scenes of daily life as seen at Meydum (and no serdab).

See Jánosi, P. "Der Gräberwelt der Pyramidenzeit" Mainz am Rhein, 2006. p. 46-48.

> > at Giza the only
> > decorated piece is an offering stela placed in
> the
> > offering chapel.
>
> Give examples.

Often these are tombs that weren't finished; didn't receive a limestone casing and belonged to high ranking officials who died during Khufu's reign. An example of such a stela (often called slab stela) is that of Ini (G1235). It is one of 15 that were made during Khufu's early reign. The mastaba of Merihetepef (G 4360) also falls in this catagory. In another 11 mastabas the stela was missing but the carved out space that held them was still visible.
The intention was of course a finished mastaba and a limestone chapel with false doors, but little else. Only 19 of the 64 mastabas in the West Cemetary were finished when Khufu died.
Only a few families had funds to replace the brick chapel by one made of limestone and to replace the slab stela by a false door. The slab stela was then walled in, not removed from the chapel.
Again proof that the minimal requirements were a resting place for the body (and equipment) and a place for offerings to the dead.

See Jánosi, P. "Der Gräberwelt der Pyramidenzeit" Mainz am Rhein, 2006. p.52-59.
See also: [url=http://www.gizapyramids.org/pdf_library/janosi_giza_4_dynastie.pdf]Link[/url]

> > Only few tombs have more
> > decoration such as decorated door-jambs.
>
> Give examples.

A few mastaba's such as Hemiunu's received extra's; in Hemiunu's case a space for a serdab was cut out.
In other cases tomb owners chose to carve out a chapel in the mastaba instead of building an adjacent limestone chapel.

> > All tomb
> > equipment was reduced to the bare essentials.
>
> Give examples.

Instead of real tools and vessels, models of those were put in the tomb chamber.

> > Shortly after or maybe even at near the end of
> > Khufu's reign mastabas were being richly
> decorated
> > with reliefs once more and provided with full
> > statues.

The tradition of scenes of daily life and serdab's like in Meydum was also taken up again; the reduced style from the end of Sneferu's till the end of Khufu's reign was clearly abandonned. Mastaba's planned under Khufu were enlarged to hold serdabs and internal chapels, obviously the "reduced style" was not popular.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 5305 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 01:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 795 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 02:53
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 790 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:44
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 737 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 19:14
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 807 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:04
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 668 Warwick 16-Jun-16 18:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 788 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 20:52
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 723 charly 17-Jun-16 17:55
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 1194 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 21:36
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 817 charly 02-Jan-17 18:48
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 1493 Thanos5150 02-Jan-17 22:56
Re: Djoser Blue Faience Tiles 897 Thunderbird 03-Jan-17 01:53
Abydos Royal Enclosures possibly are cenotaphs 704 DScribr 16-Jun-16 00:46
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 708 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 13:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 873 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:47
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 741 Graham Chase 08-Jun-16 09:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 737 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 16:01
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 780 Thunderbird 09-Jun-16 02:44
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 2124 Thanos5150 09-Jun-16 19:33
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 750 Thunderbird 09-Jun-16 22:41
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 722 loveritas 10-Jun-16 01:11
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 830 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 02:14
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 933 Thanos5150 10-Jun-16 18:45
Re: Property marks 707 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 21:22
Re: Property marks 807 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 04:26
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 864 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 15:08
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 1202 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 19:59
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 750 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 20:25
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 720 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 20:46
Re: The Sickle 753 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 21:21
Re: The Sickle 664 Eddie Larry 11-Jun-16 23:48
Re: The Sickle 694 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 01:59
Re: The Sickle 694 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 02:04
Re: Khemitology 780 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 15:05
Re: The Sickle 842 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 03:30
Re: The Sickle 640 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:00
Re: The Sickle 677 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 04:09
Re: The Sickle 623 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:16
Re: The Sickle 737 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 05:07
Re: Ethnicity 994 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 16:14
Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 757 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 00:40
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 796 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 01:14
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 718 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 02:58
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 975 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 04:59
Re: The Sickle 702 Warwick 16-Jun-16 19:26
Re: The Sickle 750 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 01:20
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 699 Graham Chase 10-Jun-16 08:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 752 Eddie Larry 10-Jun-16 14:08
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 658 Warwick 12-Jun-16 17:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 639 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 20:35
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 616 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:13
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 664 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 20:19
Books 812 Warwick 07-Jun-16 20:36
Re: Books 679 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:15
Re: Books 734 Warwick 07-Jun-16 21:23
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 789 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 21:59
Re: Foreign Spiritual Influence 673 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 22:54
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 656 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 04:02
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 781 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 06:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 672 Audrey 08-Jun-16 16:37
Re: Ancient Symbols 852 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 779 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 17:30
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 722 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 21:38
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 762 DScribr 16-Jun-16 01:01
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 668 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 674 DScribr 17-Jun-16 00:58
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 678 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 03:10
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 672 DScribr 17-Jun-16 17:45


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