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charly Wrote:
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> The reliefs, paintings, and writings all over the
> walls aren't missing but located in the mortuary
> temple of the pyramid-COMPLEX.

Myself from this post: LACK OF INSCRIPTIONS IN GREAT PYRAMID/ FUNCTION OF MORTUARY TEMPLE
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"Quoting Mark Lehner:
Quote

Dieter Arnold, among others, doubts whether the pyramid temples and causeways were in fact used in the royal funerary ceremony. One argument is that the rooms and doorways seem to small for the passage of the funeral. From the mortuary temple the body and grave goods had to be taken into the pyramid court and round the north side of the pyramid to be carried into the burial chamber. In the standard pyramid temples of the 5th and 6th dynasties the exit of the pyramid court was at one end of the traverse hall separating the front from the inner temple. Its doorways seem to narrow to allow the funeral to pass through. In Djoser's step pyramid complex, the route from the entrance hall through the mortuary temple and down to the burial vault is just too narrow. Arnold therefore thinks that the funeral rituals would have been conducted outside the pyramid complex in light structures and the royal body conveyed into the pyramid court by means of a side entrance.

To summarize, Arnold is saying that the mortuary temples were basically useless as once the mortuary temple was entered the exits and passages were too small for the funerary procession to continue into the pyramid complex. To explain this, poorly I might add, Arnold suggests they built temporary "light structures for this purpose and entered the pyramid complex, i.e. the enclosure wall, from another entrance. As we know, the mortuary temples abut the enclosure wall which often is incorporated into the back wall or sides of the temple itself.

Also to be noted is that the mortuary temples are not on the side the entrances are on. Another thing to consider is that G1 for example, the entrance is dozens of feet above ground level and at the time of death supposedly faced smooth with casing stones meaning temporary scaffolding of some sort would have to have been built to haul the dead king up the side just to get to the entrance. In the case of G1:


The pharaoh's body would have been hauled up the side to the entrance, dragged down the 3.6ft x 3.11ft descending passage then hauled up the equally narrow ascending passage to the grand gallery. Then lifted up the great step to the portcullis system and down the narrow shaft to the King's Chamber. The pall bearers then close the portcullis system behind them, drop the granite plugs at the end of the grand gallery, then go to the well shaft and climb down into the subterranean chamber then out the pyramid and close the entrance. Sounds reasonable enough....

Anyways, to continue with Lehner:
Quote

If the mortuary temple was not the stage for the royal funeral, what did it represent? At least one of its aspects was as the king's eternal residence, its parts corresponding broadly to the palace of his lifetime. Indeed, it has the same basic principles as large houses known from the archeological record: enclosure wall; vestibule; a central meeting place in the form of a pillared hall or open court; a platform for the head of the house to receive visitors; private rooms. The innermost room, the offering hall, corresponded generally to the royal dining room. Behind the false door where offerings were placed, lay the magazines, ante chamber and burial chamber under the pyramid, corresponding to the inner foyer and bedroom. The Pyramid texts identify the burial chamber as the Per Duat, an allusion to the Netherworld, but also to the Per Duat, "House of the Morning" or "Toilet House" of the palace, where the pharaoh was bathed anointed and dressed.

So, above we note that the funerary procession isn't getting out of the mortuary temple and for it to work to be buried in the pyramid they had to go around it all together and get in some side entrance through the enclosure wall. What Lehner is suggesting here is that the mortuary temple was in fact meant to be the pharaoh's palace, a "house of the dead", which is the exact function of a mastaba. This would further explain the need for the temples to be covered in commemorative funerary reliefs though the PT makes it clear the actual funerary rites were required in the burial chamber itself which as we know are not to be found in the great pyramids including the others noted above from the 5th Dynasty. Also of note, is the reason a person's name was inscribed on their sarcophagus was so that their spirit could find it when it came time at the end of each day to go back to it so they could be reborn with the new sun in the morning. A sarcophagus without inscription is basically worthless to the dead. Without it its just a box to put dead bodies in. Not cool.

I find this part of what Lehner says abit of a stretch:
Quote

Behind the false door where offerings were placed, lay the magazines, ante chamber and burial chamber under the pyramid, corresponding to the inner foyer and bedroom. The Pyramid texts identify the burial chamber as the Per Duat, an allusion to the Netherworld, but also to the Per Duat, "House of the Morning" or "Toilet House" of the palace, where the pharaoh was bathed anointed and dressed.

I find no practical way to physically associate the "bedroom of the king", part of his palace, to the inner chambers of particularly the great pyramids not to mention that if so this "bedroom", as required by the PT, is the particular place that needed the funerary rites to be written and his sarcophagus would have his name on it. Logistically it makes no sense in relation to the location of the mortuary temple which makes me wonder-if the mortuary temple is in fact the king's palace, his "house of the dead" like the mastaba; is it here where the pharaoh was to be actually buried? I am reminded of Herodotus who says that Khufu was not buried inside G1 but rather under the plateau. Is the reason why the chambers of these pyramid are devoid of the required funerary inscription because, in fact, they were not buried there, but possibly underneath or near the mortuary temple itself?"
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Just because the mortuary temples are dedicated is zero reason for there to be nothing within the pyramids themselves which is clearly contradicted by the PT regardless.

> If you take the
> pyramid out of the pyramid-complex when comparing
> them to mastabas it goes without saying that you
> won't find them.

This is nonsense as there is no reason, regardless of what is on the mortuary temple or not, you would nothing inside the pyramids if tombs.

> The mortuary temple is the royal
> version of the chapel found in or attached to the
> mastaba.

Which those at Meidum, and the Bent and Red are pathetic afterthoughts which the Red's is thought to have never even been finished, and those at Giza have no reliefs. Until Sneferu's Valley temple was excavated in 1951 Egyptologists thought pyrmaid temples were not decorated until the end of the 4th Dynasty temples which say a lot considering Giza's, those supposedly "in the middle", are not.

Quoting myself from HERE:
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"There is enough of the G2 and G3 mortuary and valley temples, regardless of plundering, to make it abundantly clear they were never covered in reliefs. Nor the Sphinx temple for that matter. This is why until the excavation of the Sneferu's Bent pyramid valley temple Egyptologists were of the mind adorning pyramid complex temples was not even practiced in the 4th Dynasty. Bent does not have a "mortuary temple" per se', but rather a small unadorned relatively pathetic cult chapel that abuts it which seems a contradiction of workmanship and scale compared to the pyramid itself. The Red pyramid mortuary temple is virtually non-existent and was of such a limited scope and craftsmanship Egyptologists explain this by suggesting it was "built in a hurry" or never even completed. There is no evidence of a causeway leading from the mortuary temple to the valley temple, suggesting it was never built, and it is questionable whether it ever had a valley temple either. There is a small unadorned pedestrian chapel at Meidum but no evidence of any valley temple.

So, in reality what you have are the massive unadorned temples at Giza and the small and poorly constructed adorned temples attributed to Sneferu who built at least 3 if not 5 pyramids in all. Immediately after Giza, at the very beginning of the 5th Dynasty, we find lavishly adorned funerary temples littered with reliefs which now also suddenly incorporate beautifully carved and designed round granite columns prior to which, except at Saqqara, were stark and square. Sahure who ruled barely 10yrs after Menkaure:



Various Temples of Giza:




Bent pyramid chapel:

Meidum:


Is there really a direct connection between the temples at Giza and those that came directly before and after? I don't think so. As far as the Khufu reliefs are concerned, if all the other temples at Giza are any indication one could assume they were part of a pedestrian valley temple added after the fact by Khufu akin to what is found at Dahshur.

I would also note that the fragments of reliefs found at Dashur and those attributed to Khufu are largely of the kings participation in the Sed Festival which is not a funerary rite, but rather a rejuvenation and commemoration ceremony held after 30yrs of rule repeated every 3yrs after. One has to wonder if the temple was built in honor of this achievement while living rather than to remember the accomplishment after death. Instead of a Rolex, they got a temple."
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So there's that little problem too.

> Inscriptions on sarcophagi are not very common in
> the OK

You sure about that?

> and when they occur they record only the
> owner's name and titles.

So the dead could find it and return each day.

> Most sarcophagi are still
> "blank"; a name is not required by AE religion.

Most are not "blank" and it is required. There is a reason some are blank, i.e. not dedicated, not just whim-the most likely reason being they were unfinished a la mastaba 17 at Meidum. Or in the case of the pyramid because they were never intended to have a body in the 1st place.

> In fact reliefs,paintings, and writings all over
> the walls in mastabas aren't required by AE
> religion either;

Yes they are.

> near the end of Sneferu's reign decoration of the
> chapel's was reduced, no more scenes of crafsmen
> and farmers.

The exact opposite is true. Can you give one example of a mastaba or chapel prior to Sneferu that is decorated?

> At the beginning of Khufu's reign
> decoration is still more reduced;

Give examples of mastabas we can quantify as belonging to the "beginnings of Khufu's reign".
Ironically, among other reasons this part part of why I argue in The Mastabas of Meidum- A New Perspective the Meidum mastabas attributed to Nefermaat I of Rahotep at Meidum are not 4th Dynasty because their interiors are so elaborately adorned.

> at Giza the only
> decorated piece is an offering stela placed in the
> offering chapel.

Give examples.

> Only few tombs have more
> decoration such as decorated door-jambs.

Give examples.

> All tomb
> equipment was reduced to the bare essentials.

Give examples.

> Shortly after or maybe even at near the end of
> Khufu's reign mastabas were being richly decorated
> with reliefs once more and provided with full
> statues.

Speaking of those of "Khufu's reign":

Quote

Specifically, the organized development of cemeteries at Giza are mostly believed to be due to the efforts of Khufu, who had these tombs laid out methodically in "streets" and avenues", and aligned to the axis of his pyramid complex. In fact, scholars believe that Khufu laid out these orderly cemeteries to the east and west of his pyramid in what may have been the world's first example of prefabricated construction, with the assignment of specific tombs to specific individuals only occurring afterwards. Hence, while tourists to Giza are awed by the efforts required to build his Great Pyramid, few realize that at the same time construction was taking place all about this monument.

Quoting myself:
Quote

Doing a more thorough count, which I'm sure has a +/- error of at least a few:
4th Dynasty-"Old Kingdom"=90 (several of these are questionable but I included them anyways)
Undetermined 4th or 5th Dynasty=20
Unknown occupant and date=12
5th and 6th Dynasties=226.

These numbers do not include the South cemetery or burials beyond the 6th Dynasty.
Of the 90 or so attributed to the 4th Dynasty and/or general pre "Late Old Kingdom", only 26(+/-) are attributed to Khufu's reign (though several of these attributions may be only architectural and/or geographical) and 14 are not attributed to any specific individual. Even less are attributed to Khafre with the vast majority being attributed to Menkaure or the indiscriminate "Late 4th Dynasty".
I am going by the information available to me and am not guaranteeing my numbers are 100% accurate by any means. One thing that is clear regardless is that the least represented era at these cemeteries is the reign of Khufu, who supposedly just so happened to rule the longest and was the greatest of them all, and the 4th Dynasty in general, with the overwhelming majority dating to 5th and 6th Dynasties which is also consistent with the so-called "pyramid worker's" cemetery.
Here.

So what is from "Khufu's reign" let alone the "beginning" exactly?



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 18-Jun-16 05:29 by Thanos5150.

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Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 5304 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 01:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 794 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 02:53
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 790 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:44
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 737 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 19:14
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 807 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:04
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 668 Warwick 16-Jun-16 18:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 787 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 20:52
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 723 charly 17-Jun-16 17:55
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 1193 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 21:36
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 817 charly 02-Jan-17 18:48
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 1492 Thanos5150 02-Jan-17 22:56
Re: Djoser Blue Faience Tiles 897 Thunderbird 03-Jan-17 01:53
Abydos Royal Enclosures possibly are cenotaphs 703 DScribr 16-Jun-16 00:46
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 708 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 13:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 873 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:47
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 741 Graham Chase 08-Jun-16 09:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 737 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 16:01
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Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 2124 Thanos5150 09-Jun-16 19:33
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 750 Thunderbird 09-Jun-16 22:41
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Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 830 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 02:14
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 933 Thanos5150 10-Jun-16 18:45
Re: Property marks 707 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 21:22
Re: Property marks 807 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 04:26
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 864 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 15:08
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 1201 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 19:59
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 749 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 20:25
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 719 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 20:46
Re: The Sickle 753 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 21:21
Re: The Sickle 663 Eddie Larry 11-Jun-16 23:48
Re: The Sickle 694 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 01:59
Re: The Sickle 694 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 02:04
Re: Khemitology 780 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 15:05
Re: The Sickle 841 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 03:30
Re: The Sickle 640 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:00
Re: The Sickle 677 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 04:09
Re: The Sickle 622 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:16
Re: The Sickle 736 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 05:07
Re: Ethnicity 993 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 16:14
Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 757 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 00:40
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 796 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 01:14
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 718 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 02:58
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 975 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 04:59
Re: The Sickle 701 Warwick 16-Jun-16 19:26
Re: The Sickle 750 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 01:20
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 698 Graham Chase 10-Jun-16 08:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 752 Eddie Larry 10-Jun-16 14:08
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 657 Warwick 12-Jun-16 17:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 639 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 20:35
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 616 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:13
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 663 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 20:19
Books 812 Warwick 07-Jun-16 20:36
Re: Books 678 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:15
Re: Books 734 Warwick 07-Jun-16 21:23
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 789 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 21:59
Re: Foreign Spiritual Influence 672 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 22:54
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 656 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 04:02
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 781 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 06:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 672 Audrey 08-Jun-16 16:37
Re: Ancient Symbols 851 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 779 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 17:30
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 721 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 21:38
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 762 DScribr 16-Jun-16 01:01
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 668 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 674 DScribr 17-Jun-16 00:58
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 677 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 03:10
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 671 DScribr 17-Jun-16 17:45


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