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Corpuscles Wrote:
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> Maybe! and I know you have precious time but I
> doubt that you read (in scholarly manner)
> the article and the references ?

You asked:
Quote

If this interests you perhaps given your strong contention of late 3rd or 4th Dynasty invention of cartouche perhaps you would like to present a case that currently held Egyptology has it wrong and Senedj must have been post 4th Dynasty?

And then showed a picture of a 19th Dynasty cartouche.

Sorry I did not take the time to read all through your link to understand what you were saying. After these last few threads I have started my brain is shutting down.

Ok, if you are going to make me get all scholarly on you-there was an ambiguous pot shard that is suggested to date to the 3rd Dynasty found at Saqqara that refers to him. A picture is found here: Uvo Hölscher, Georg Steindorff: Das Grabdenkmal des Königs Chephren (= Veröffentlichungen der Ernst von Sieglin Expedition in Ägypten, 1st Volume). Hinrischs'sche Buchhandlung, Leipzig 1912. page 106ff if you want to find it.

Also:
Quote

Noteworthy is a finding (documented in Orientalia 57, 1988 p. 330) from the area of the Ninetjer's galleries, south of the south wall of the Djoser's complex (Saqqara): a mudbrick with the cartouche name of the king NeferSenedjRa is a valid indication of the presence of the tomb or of a funerary cult shrine of this king in that area.
Whether of Second dynasty date, this would be the most ancient cartouche-royal name ever found, predating the cartouches on the seals of Neferkaseker, Peribsen and those of the Third Dynasty Nebka and Huni-Niswteh.
Source.

Ninetjer (Nynetjer) was a 2nd Dynasty pharaoh of which there were quite a few artifacts with writing on them in the style of the period found with no cartouches and obviously a mud brick found outside in the general area of his tomb means very little.

Quote

It seems that all the alleged Second Dynasty occurrences of cartouches are either not contemporary or simply forgeries. The former possibility may be suggested for a reported discovery at the site of Ninetjer’s tomb at Saqqara of a brick stamped with the name in a cartouche, deciphered by the excavator as Nfr-snD-Ra(w). It was interpreted as coming from a building of the Second Dynasty king Sened; it was further suggested that Nefersenedjra was his nswt bjtj name (Leclant & Clere, 1988, 330; repeated by Vercoutter 1992, 227).This seems highly improbable since stamped bricks occurred for the first time at the beginning of the Eighteenth Dynasty. Moreover, the form %nD (written with a truncated duck sign, Gardiner’s sign G54), attested in the New Kingdom royal lists (Abydos and Turin), is a late, corrupted version. The king was referred to as %nd (written with the three alphabetical signs) still during the Fourth Dynasty, as the inscriptions of Shery prove. The brick most probably dates from the New Kingdom or later, and one may doubt whether the name Nfr-snD-Ra(w) (if read correctly), could have anything in common with %nD of the lists.
Source

The next, which a cartouche is present, was found according to your own source:
Quote

The next source referring to king Senedj dates back to the beginning or middle of the 4th dynasty. The name, written in a cartouche, appears in the inscription on a false door belonging to the mastaba tomb of the high priest Shery at Sakkara. Shery held the title “overseer of all wab-priests of king Peribsen in the necropolis of king Senedj”, “overseer of the ka-priests of king Senedj” and “god´s servant of Senedj”. Senedj's name is written in archaic form and set in a cartouche, which is an anachronism, since the cartouche itself was not used until the end of 3rd dynasty under king Huni.[6][7] Egyptologist Dietrich Wildung points to two further priests and possible relatives of Shery, who both also participated the funerary cult of Senedj, Inkef and Siy.

Shery was part of Senedj's funerary cult which is why it is found in the 4th Dynasty in a cartouche.
The false door which has his name:




Mortuary cults are part and parcel of AE culture so it is not uncommon to find the name of pharaohs hundreds of years later written on monuments long after their death associated with these cults. There are also even later mentions of his name as you read.

> The mere appearance of a similiar cartouche in
> 19th D, in various contradictory lists, is
> clearly not definitive. There is lots of
> discussion of archaelogical finds mentioned which
> associate with the claim ( that nasty pesky
> Reisner amongst them ...ROFL! ;-) that supports
> the contention that it was 2nd dynasty.

Can you quote some of these "many" and/or give sources?

> > Have I proved my case?
>
> What that I am a inarticulate , incoherent
> nutcase! Maybe!?

Lol. I thought that was a given at this point!

> > So what are you trying to say my friend?
>
> Are Senedj or Peribsen 2nd dynasty kings OR NOT?

Yes.

> Why would a 2nd dynasty king have a cartouche on
> deemed 2nd dynasty tombs?

They don't.

> And if nothing else.... at least you post
> interesting informative stuff, worthy of an
> attempt to repay by some attention and reply! ;-)

Thanks man. I really do appreciate it.



Edited 5 time(s). Last edit at 15-Jun-16 23:33 by Thanos5150.

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 5314 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 01:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 798 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 02:53
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 793 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:44
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 738 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 19:14
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 810 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:04
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 670 Warwick 16-Jun-16 18:34
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 790 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 20:52
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 725 charly 17-Jun-16 17:55
Re: Additional Thought regarding Abydos Royal Enclosures 1196 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 21:36
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 820 charly 02-Jan-17 18:48
Re: Decoration in pyramids and mastabas 1497 Thanos5150 02-Jan-17 22:56
Re: Djoser Blue Faience Tiles 899 Thunderbird 03-Jan-17 01:53
Abydos Royal Enclosures possibly are cenotaphs 706 DScribr 16-Jun-16 00:46
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 709 Graham Chase 07-Jun-16 13:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 875 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:47
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 742 Graham Chase 08-Jun-16 09:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 739 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 16:01
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 783 Thunderbird 09-Jun-16 02:44
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 2128 Thanos5150 09-Jun-16 19:33
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 752 Thunderbird 09-Jun-16 22:41
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 724 loveritas 10-Jun-16 01:11
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 832 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 02:14
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 935 Thanos5150 10-Jun-16 18:45
Re: Property marks 710 Thunderbird 10-Jun-16 21:22
Re: Property marks 809 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 04:26
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 867 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 15:08
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 1202 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 19:59
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 752 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 20:25
Re: ZAG SAKH ....Serekh? 720 Thanos5150 11-Jun-16 20:46
Re: The Sickle 755 Thunderbird 11-Jun-16 21:21
Re: The Sickle 666 Eddie Larry 11-Jun-16 23:48
Re: The Sickle 697 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 01:59
Re: The Sickle 696 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 02:04
Re: Khemitology 782 Thunderbird 12-Jun-16 15:05
Re: The Sickle 844 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 03:30
Re: The Sickle 642 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:00
Re: The Sickle 679 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 04:09
Re: The Sickle 625 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 04:16
Re: The Sickle 739 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 05:07
Re: Ethnicity 997 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 16:14
Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 759 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 00:40
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 799 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 01:14
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 720 Corpuscles 14-Jun-16 02:58
Re: Senedj & Seth-Peribsen 977 Thanos5150 14-Jun-16 04:59
Re: The Sickle 704 Warwick 16-Jun-16 19:26
Re: The Sickle 752 Thanos5150 12-Jun-16 01:20
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 701 Graham Chase 10-Jun-16 08:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 754 Eddie Larry 10-Jun-16 14:08
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 661 Warwick 12-Jun-16 17:32
Re: Dynasty 1 cut and dressed 641 Eddie Larry 12-Jun-16 20:35
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 618 Warwick 07-Jun-16 15:13
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 666 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 20:19
Books 814 Warwick 07-Jun-16 20:36
Re: Books 681 Thanos5150 07-Jun-16 21:15
Re: Books 736 Warwick 07-Jun-16 21:23
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 791 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 21:59
Re: Foreign Spiritual Influence 675 Thunderbird 07-Jun-16 22:54
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 658 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 04:02
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 785 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 06:48
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 674 Audrey 08-Jun-16 16:37
Re: Ancient Symbols 855 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 782 Thanos5150 08-Jun-16 17:30
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 724 Thunderbird 08-Jun-16 21:38
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 767 DScribr 16-Jun-16 01:01
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 670 Thanos5150 16-Jun-16 17:21
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 676 DScribr 17-Jun-16 00:58
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 680 Thanos5150 17-Jun-16 03:10
Re: Troubles with the 2nd Dynasty. 672 DScribr 17-Jun-16 17:45


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