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Hi Thanos

I always appreciate your magnificent storehouse of pictures. Thanks.

I thought I was pretty much done here (this thread), but you ask some questions I will try to answer.

I have deleted some of the claptrap relating to my 'hypothetical' but thanks for answering. The response was consistent with what I expected.

I reverse order some of your stuff


Thanos5150 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Give me a picture of an AE stone vase you think
> defies all explanation.

Many of the pictures you provided in your reply almost meet this condition if we limit the technology to that batcrazy primitive contraption pictured as being an AE drill and as promoted by D Stocks.

Obviously the one you note is quite large was not made using one of those contraptions neither were the fine tapered drinking vessels.

However you go on to acknowledge that all these creators must have had a lathe. Eureka!

>
> Nope. But Petrie makes it pretty clear they must
> have had lathes which is pretty obvious even to
> the laymen. Let me ask you-what kind of
> contraption could be built using these same
> materials that could create this balance?

The most outstanding for me, not because of beauty or elaborate work is the balanced on a point bowl as made famous by Chris Dunn.

You unfortunately seem to arrived very late in this thread. No problemo!, but you seemed to have missed or not understood the significance of a great deal of significant information.

Jon Ellison posted many very important technical things that I suspect most simply do not have the background experience or interest to understand . He posted a picture of an internal, centrigugal honing tool. It is on page 4 of the thread but it is large pic so ... PLEASE look it up if interested.

Something like that is required to delicately control tapering or internal wall width. Of course in conjunction with a power source and likely a spinning lathe, with very strict stable multi point anchoring.

(btw It would have cost you and your Mrs ... nothing! ;-) as I feel confident a replica could be made today but it would be a super high tech effort)
>
>

> When you look at how much of it there is from the
> archaic Dynastic period alone along with the
> machining that Petrie among others note, there
> seems no doubt they used mechanical advantage
> beyond handheld cranks with an environment able to
> produce them in volume. The point of noting modern
> and ancient examples of these tools is to show
> that you can in fact make similar stone vessels
> with relatively "primitive" technology. There
> comes a point, however, when such simple tools do
> not stand up to scrutiny, but in lieu of these
> tools how advanced must the other tools actually
> be?
How could these principles be adapted using
> ingenious methods to create simple
> machines? The Romans used water powered bronze
> gang saws to fine cut large slabs of marble veneer
> 6ft long and few inches thick several at a time.
> Then they installed them. This is not space age
> technology yet it amazing nonetheless.
>
> >

I am not (nor do I think Petrie) talking about a medieval rod type lathe. You know rope on a tree wrapped around a shaft and foot pedal operated. The precision of these things demand very controlled regulation of cutting tool tip application.

Further IMO it requires very sharp at the very least steel cutting tip.

For me it all comes down to this:

If the dating of several of these very hard stone artefacts is correct(???) THEN at the very least the iron and steel age much be pushed back several millenia. Further the sophisication of machinery that was designed and built to achieve it must be very SIGNIFICANTLY advanced , massively greater, than is credited by Egyptology and Archaeology.

I highly recommend you look up for a guest visit in your city either a recreational "mens shed" (term here in Australia). (Retired old blokes play around with both timber and metal lathes ....you know the ones who are not on the internet 24/7)
or
Try to connect to a metal fabrication engineering shop and ask for a brief look at what is involved in precision turning.

I say that for your and others futher education and enlightenment. I am no expert (but enough that I can tell easily that Jon E is and has politely contributed without much appreciation or acknowledgement). If you just did that you would drop this notion of hard stone being precision cut /shaped by those primitive contraptions... FAST!


Cheers

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Creighton persists 3966 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:26
Some may also be wondering . . . 715 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 867 Frank D 30-Apr-16 23:41
On a natural reading . . . 871 Martin Stower 01-May-16 00:44
Re: On a natural reading . . . 636 Hanslune 01-May-16 05:25
Re: On a natural reading . . . 727 Martin Stower 01-May-16 13:53
Re: On a natural reading . . . 638 Hanslune 01-May-16 14:42
And who will guard the Guards? 645 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 09:08
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 865 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:47
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 665 DScribr 09-May-16 13:21
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 780 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 13:48
Re: And who will read his book? 597 DScribr 10-May-16 02:05
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 630 Martin Stower 16-May-16 23:01
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 675 Martin Stower 09-May-16 19:00
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 713 Corpuscles 09-May-16 20:07
Re: And who will accept the facts? 634 DScribr 10-May-16 02:21
Re: And who will accept the facts? 615 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:01
Re: And who will accept the facts? 565 DScribr 10-May-16 03:30
Re: And who will accept the facts? 582 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:47
Re: And who will accept the facts? 504 DScribr 10-May-16 13:32
Re: And who will accept the facts? 476 Harte 10-May-16 20:53
Re: And who will accept the facts? 593 Origyptian 10-May-16 21:14
Change Of Tune!?! 732 DScribr 11-May-16 01:54
The certainty of contamination 606 DScribr 11-May-16 01:44
Re: And who will accept the facts? 589 Frank D 11-May-16 23:40
Re: And who will accept the facts? 553 DScribr 12-May-16 02:52
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 586 DScribr 10-May-16 02:11
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 701 LonelyAngel 10-May-16 12:40
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 576 Origyptian 10-May-16 13:16
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 654 DScribr 10-May-16 13:35
Re: On reading about 'proof' 541 DScribr 07-May-16 15:56
Re: On reading about 'proof' 592 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 947 drrayeye 01-May-16 15:10
Re: Creighton persists 723 Martin Stower 01-May-16 16:21
Re: Attack!....Attack! 634 Thunderbird 01-May-16 22:47
Re: Attack!....Attack! 725 Martin Stower 01-May-16 23:19
Re: Attack!....Attack! 701 Hanslune 02-May-16 01:26
Re: Attack!....Attack! 719 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:25
Re: Attack!....Attack! 716 Hanslune 02-May-16 21:12
Re: Creighton persists 770 cladking 02-May-16 00:22
Re: Creighton persists 695 Martin Stower 02-May-16 01:11
Re: Creighton persists 623 cladking 02-May-16 01:31
Re: Creighton persists 667 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:03
Re: Creighton persists 641 cladking 03-May-16 00:50
Re: Creighton persists 619 Hanslune 03-May-16 06:00
Re: Creighton persists 586 Merrell 03-May-16 07:34
Re: Creighton persists 821 Origyptian 03-May-16 11:46
Re: Creighton persists 729 Martin Stower 03-May-16 14:01
Re: Creighton persists 826 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:55
Re: Creighton persists 703 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:54
Re: Creighton persists 705 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:49
Re: Creighton persists 715 Thanos5150 03-May-16 18:26
Re: Creighton persists 702 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:09
Re: Creighton persists 775 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:56
Re: Creighton persists 672 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:52
Re: Creighton persists 633 Martin Stower 04-May-16 17:54
Re: Creighton persists 621 Origyptian 04-May-16 21:06
Re: Creighton persists 979 Martin Stower 04-May-16 22:28
Re: Creighton persists 647 Harte 06-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 607 Origyptian 06-May-16 13:04
Re: Creighton persists 560 Martin Stower 06-May-16 15:35
Re: Creighton persists 622 Harte 06-May-16 16:50
Re: Creighton persists 606 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 17:33
Re: Creighton persists 542 Audrey 06-May-16 20:00
Re: Creighton persists 909 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:25
Re: Creighton persists 622 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:48
Re: Creighton persists 666 Archae Solenhofen 06-May-16 22:30
Re: Creighton persists 566 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 600 Martin Stower 07-May-16 00:02
Re: Creighton persists 597 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 00:33
Re: Creighton persists 726 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 01:07
Re: Creighton persists 610 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 01:55
Re: Creighton persists 468 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:03
Re: Creighton persists 810 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:06
Re: Creighton persists 501 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 10:39
Re: Creighton persists 541 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 16:38
Re: Creighton persists 575 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:03
Some "Engineer" 953 DScribr 08-May-16 20:54
Re: Some "Engineer" 570 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:00
Re: Some "Engineer" 663 Audrey 08-May-16 21:15
Re: Some "Engineer" 658 DScribr 08-May-16 21:33
Re: Some "Engineer" 627 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:44
Re: Creighton persists 671 Audrey 07-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 582 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:16
Re: Creighton persists 599 Luminescence 08-May-16 01:52
Another "Impossibility" 597 DScribr 08-May-16 21:36
Re: Creighton persists 598 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:23
Re: Creighton persists 728 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:16
my mysterious balls 667 Audrey 07-May-16 06:42
Re: Creighton persists 533 Origyptian 07-May-16 15:51
Re: Creighton persists 552 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:12
Re: Creighton persists 486 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:23
Re: Creighton persists 611 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:53
Re: Creighton persists 545 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 18:40
Re: Creighton persists 576 Audrey 07-May-16 19:30
Re: Creighton persists 543 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 20:11
Re: Creighton persists 563 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 00:06
Re: Creighton persists 613 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 01:23
Re: Creighton persists 545 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 09:48
Re: Creighton persists 484 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:34
Re: Creighton persists 524 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 17:32
Re: Creighton persists 526 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:07
Re: Creighton persists 625 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:24
Re: Creighton persists 511 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 464 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 10:32
Re: Creighton persists 565 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:58
Re: Creighton persists 613 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:25
Re: Creighton persists 498 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 527 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:33
Re: Creighton persists 523 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:44
Re: Creighton persists 586 Origyptian 08-May-16 15:31
Re: Creighton persists 468 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 16:17
Failure to acept the facts persists 558 DScribr 08-May-16 22:11
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 637 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 22:26
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 575 DScribr 09-May-16 00:29
Re: Creighton persists 537 Audrey 08-May-16 17:37
Re: Creighton persists 613 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 18:30
Re: Creighton persists 570 Audrey 08-May-16 18:52
Re: Creighton persists 641 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:13
Re: Creighton persists 558 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:20
Re: Creighton persists 569 Audrey 08-May-16 20:35
Re: Creighton persists 592 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 22:05
Re: Creighton persists 534 Audrey 08-May-16 23:05
Re: Creighton persists 533 Archae Solenhofen 09-May-16 00:11
Re: Creighton persists 613 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:35
Re: Creighton persists 499 Corpuscles 09-May-16 01:28
Re: Creighton persists 603 Origyptian 09-May-16 17:15
Re: Creighton persists 549 Corpuscles 09-May-16 19:40
Re: Creighton persists 504 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 20:02
Re: Creighton persists 562 Origyptian 09-May-16 21:25
Re: Creighton persists 650 Martin Stower 09-May-16 22:16
Re: Creighton persists 591 Origyptian 09-May-16 23:06
Re: Creighton persists 605 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:33
Re: Creighton persists 557 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:41
Re: Creighton persists 602 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:45
Re: Creighton persists 626 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:58
Re: Creighton persists 527 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 01:05
Re: Creighton persists 561 Martin Stower 10-May-16 19:32
Re: Creighton persists 614 Origyptian 10-May-16 20:31
Re: Creighton persists 580 Martin Stower 10-May-16 20:45
What Standards? 482 DScribr 10-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 491 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 14:45
Re: Creighton persists 514 Origyptian 10-May-16 14:53
Re: Creighton persists 585 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 15:00
Re: Creighton persists 601 Audrey 11-May-16 00:53
Re: Creighton persists 643 Martin Stower 11-May-16 01:43
Also . . . 572 Martin Stower 11-May-16 09:19
Re: Creighton persists 624 Origyptian 11-May-16 03:14
Re: Creighton persists 793 Martin Stower 11-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 675 Corpuscles 11-May-16 10:53
Re: Vessel manufacture 756 Thanos5150 11-May-16 17:24
Re: Vessel manufacture 498 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 18:11
Re: Vessel manufacture 753 Thanos5150 11-May-16 19:30
Re: Vessel manufacture 506 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 465 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 519 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:36
Re: Vessel manufacture 566 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 501 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 498 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 540 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 510 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 439 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 497 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 571 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 456 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 484 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 603 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 520 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 507 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 472 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 475 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 489 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 433 Audrey 11-May-16 21:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 483 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 530 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 501 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 530 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 515 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 606 Audrey 11-May-16 21:56
Re: Vessel manufacture 465 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 452 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 468 Audrey 11-May-16 22:40
Re: Vessel manufacture 459 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 491 Audrey 11-May-16 23:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 488 Thanos5150 12-May-16 00:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 446 Corpuscles 12-May-16 00:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 523 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 532 Corpuscles 12-May-16 02:32
Re: Vessel manufacture 747 Thanos5150 12-May-16 06:10
Re: Vessel manufacture 570 Audrey 12-May-16 01:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 511 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 481 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 409 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 490 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 495 Jon Ellison 12-May-16 02:01
Re: Vessel manufacture 439 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 481 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 626 Martin Stower 12-May-16 13:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 532 Harte 12-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 472 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:38
Re: Vessel manufacture 469 Thanos5150 13-May-16 00:28
Re: Vessel manufacture 470 Audrey 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 749 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 411 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 476 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 502 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 504 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:42
Re: Vessel manufacture 448 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:48
Re: Vessel manufacture 620 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 608 Thanos5150 12-May-16 05:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 457 Corpuscles 12-May-16 08:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 463 DScribr 12-May-16 03:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 714 Audrey 11-May-16 19:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 529 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 627 Origyptian 11-May-16 19:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 426 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 481 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:06
Re: Vessel manufacture 547 Audrey 12-May-16 01:47
Re: Vessel manufacture 454 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 475 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 549 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:34
Re: Vessel manufacture 491 Corpuscles 12-May-16 03:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 494 Thanos5150 12-May-16 04:05
Re: Vessel manufacture 474 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 534 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 479 Audrey 12-May-16 06:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 443 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:16
Re: Vessel manufacture 566 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 500 Origyptian 12-May-16 13:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 488 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 489 Origyptian 12-May-16 22:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 488 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 594 Origyptian 13-May-16 03:46
Re: Vessel manufacture 479 Martin Stower 13-May-16 18:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 406 DScribr 12-May-16 02:58
Re: Creighton persists 483 Martin Stower 12-May-16 11:42
Re: Creighton persists 462 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 11:00
Re: Creighton persists 492 Audrey 11-May-16 15:55
Re: Creighton persists 523 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 537 Audrey 09-May-16 01:44
Re: Creighton persists 579 Merrell 08-May-16 20:16
Re: Creighton persists 558 Audrey 08-May-16 20:36
Re: Creighton persists 586 Merrell 08-May-16 21:07
Re: Creighton persists 463 Audrey 08-May-16 21:10
Re: Creighton persists 568 Merrell 08-May-16 21:38
Re: Creighton persists 526 Audrey 08-May-16 21:59
Re: Creighton persists 519 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:27
Re: Creighton persists 529 Audrey 08-May-16 21:34
Re: Creighton persists 419 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:07
Re: Creighton persists 556 Audrey 09-May-16 03:18
Re: Creighton persists 493 Origyptian 09-May-16 04:06
Re: Creighton persists 538 Audrey 09-May-16 05:07
Re: Creighton persists 551 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:06
Re: Creighton persists 551 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 12:00
Re: Creighton persists 436 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:17
Re: Creighton persists 511 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:29
Re: Creighton persists 487 DScribr 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 512 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 513 Origyptian 09-May-16 01:49
Re: Creighton persists 585 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:13
Re: Creighton persists 332 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:07
Re: Drill baby drill.... 603 Thunderbird 08-May-16 02:41
Re: Drill baby drill.... 764 Origyptian 08-May-16 03:23
Re: Drill baby drill.... 626 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:38
We've been thru this 100 times. 482 DScribr 09-May-16 00:41
Re: We've been thru this 100 times. 655 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 01:00
Re: Drill baby drill.... 779 Harte 08-May-16 19:35
Re: Drill baby drill.... 552 DScribr 09-May-16 00:45
Re: Drill baby drill.... 567 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 614 Thunderbird 08-May-16 19:41
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 590 Audrey 08-May-16 20:49
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 569 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:55
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 459 Audrey 08-May-16 21:09
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 453 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 549 Audrey 08-May-16 21:22
Too much interpretation 495 DScribr 09-May-16 00:36
Re: Too much interpretation 462 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:41
Refusal Persists 478 DScribr 09-May-16 00:21
Re: Creighton persists 462 Audrey 07-May-16 02:02
Re: Creighton persists 562 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:55
Re: Creighton persists 604 Audrey 07-May-16 04:14
Re: Creighton persists 534 Origyptian 06-May-16 18:21
Re: Creighton persists 469 Audrey 06-May-16 19:03
Re: Creighton persists 619 Martin Stower 07-May-16 01:00
Re: Creighton persists 517 Origyptian 06-May-16 20:12
Logic rarely persists here. 598 DScribr 08-May-16 20:40
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 540 Corpuscles 08-May-16 21:51
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 560 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:20
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 545 Harte 09-May-16 21:18
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 540 DScribr 10-May-16 02:23
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 682 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:11
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 560 DScribr 10-May-16 03:38
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 586 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:54
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 515 DScribr 10-May-16 13:42
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 594 Harte 10-May-16 10:03
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 515 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 10:06
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 451