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Hi Thanos

I always appreciate your magnificent storehouse of pictures. Thanks.

I thought I was pretty much done here (this thread), but you ask some questions I will try to answer.

I have deleted some of the claptrap relating to my 'hypothetical' but thanks for answering. The response was consistent with what I expected.

I reverse order some of your stuff


Thanos5150 Wrote:
-------------------------------------------------------

> Give me a picture of an AE stone vase you think
> defies all explanation.

Many of the pictures you provided in your reply almost meet this condition if we limit the technology to that batcrazy primitive contraption pictured as being an AE drill and as promoted by D Stocks.

Obviously the one you note is quite large was not made using one of those contraptions neither were the fine tapered drinking vessels.

However you go on to acknowledge that all these creators must have had a lathe. Eureka!

>
> Nope. But Petrie makes it pretty clear they must
> have had lathes which is pretty obvious even to
> the laymen. Let me ask you-what kind of
> contraption could be built using these same
> materials that could create this balance?

The most outstanding for me, not because of beauty or elaborate work is the balanced on a point bowl as made famous by Chris Dunn.

You unfortunately seem to arrived very late in this thread. No problemo!, but you seemed to have missed or not understood the significance of a great deal of significant information.

Jon Ellison posted many very important technical things that I suspect most simply do not have the background experience or interest to understand . He posted a picture of an internal, centrigugal honing tool. It is on page 4 of the thread but it is large pic so ... PLEASE look it up if interested.

Something like that is required to delicately control tapering or internal wall width. Of course in conjunction with a power source and likely a spinning lathe, with very strict stable multi point anchoring.

(btw It would have cost you and your Mrs ... nothing! ;-) as I feel confident a replica could be made today but it would be a super high tech effort)
>
>

> When you look at how much of it there is from the
> archaic Dynastic period alone along with the
> machining that Petrie among others note, there
> seems no doubt they used mechanical advantage
> beyond handheld cranks with an environment able to
> produce them in volume. The point of noting modern
> and ancient examples of these tools is to show
> that you can in fact make similar stone vessels
> with relatively "primitive" technology. There
> comes a point, however, when such simple tools do
> not stand up to scrutiny, but in lieu of these
> tools how advanced must the other tools actually
> be?
How could these principles be adapted using
> ingenious methods to create simple
> machines? The Romans used water powered bronze
> gang saws to fine cut large slabs of marble veneer
> 6ft long and few inches thick several at a time.
> Then they installed them. This is not space age
> technology yet it amazing nonetheless.
>
> >

I am not (nor do I think Petrie) talking about a medieval rod type lathe. You know rope on a tree wrapped around a shaft and foot pedal operated. The precision of these things demand very controlled regulation of cutting tool tip application.

Further IMO it requires very sharp at the very least steel cutting tip.

For me it all comes down to this:

If the dating of several of these very hard stone artefacts is correct(???) THEN at the very least the iron and steel age much be pushed back several millenia. Further the sophisication of machinery that was designed and built to achieve it must be very SIGNIFICANTLY advanced , massively greater, than is credited by Egyptology and Archaeology.

I highly recommend you look up for a guest visit in your city either a recreational "mens shed" (term here in Australia). (Retired old blokes play around with both timber and metal lathes ....you know the ones who are not on the internet 24/7)
or
Try to connect to a metal fabrication engineering shop and ask for a brief look at what is involved in precision turning.

I say that for your and others futher education and enlightenment. I am no expert (but enough that I can tell easily that Jon E is and has politely contributed without much appreciation or acknowledgement). If you just did that you would drop this notion of hard stone being precision cut /shaped by those primitive contraptions... FAST!


Cheers

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Subject Views Written By Posted
Creighton persists 3883 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:26
Some may also be wondering . . . 701 Martin Stower 30-Apr-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 850 Frank D 30-Apr-16 23:41
On a natural reading . . . 859 Martin Stower 01-May-16 00:44
Re: On a natural reading . . . 623 Hanslune 01-May-16 05:25
Re: On a natural reading . . . 714 Martin Stower 01-May-16 13:53
Re: On a natural reading . . . 624 Hanslune 01-May-16 14:42
And who will guard the Guards? 632 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 09:08
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 799 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:47
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 651 DScribr 09-May-16 13:21
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 767 LonelyAngel 09-May-16 13:48
Re: And who will read his book? 581 DScribr 10-May-16 02:05
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 619 Martin Stower 16-May-16 23:01
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 662 Martin Stower 09-May-16 19:00
Re: And who will guard the Guards? 627 Corpuscles 09-May-16 20:07
Re: And who will accept the facts? 620 DScribr 10-May-16 02:21
Re: And who will accept the facts? 602 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:01
Re: And who will accept the facts? 551 DScribr 10-May-16 03:30
Re: And who will accept the facts? 569 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:47
Re: And who will accept the facts? 488 DScribr 10-May-16 13:32
Re: And who will accept the facts? 463 Harte 10-May-16 20:53
Re: And who will accept the facts? 579 Origyptian 10-May-16 21:14
Change Of Tune!?! 718 DScribr 11-May-16 01:54
The certainty of contamination 593 DScribr 11-May-16 01:44
Re: And who will accept the facts? 574 Frank D 11-May-16 23:40
Re: And who will accept the facts? 539 DScribr 12-May-16 02:52
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 571 DScribr 10-May-16 02:11
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 664 LonelyAngel 10-May-16 12:40
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 563 Origyptian 10-May-16 13:16
Re: And who will guard the Henhouse??? 618 DScribr 10-May-16 13:35
Re: On reading about 'proof' 528 DScribr 07-May-16 15:56
Re: On reading about 'proof' 579 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 872 drrayeye 01-May-16 15:10
Re: Creighton persists 709 Martin Stower 01-May-16 16:21
Re: Attack!....Attack! 617 Thunderbird 01-May-16 22:47
Re: Attack!....Attack! 710 Martin Stower 01-May-16 23:19
Re: Attack!....Attack! 688 Hanslune 02-May-16 01:26
Re: Attack!....Attack! 679 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:25
Re: Attack!....Attack! 704 Hanslune 02-May-16 21:12
Re: Creighton persists 728 cladking 02-May-16 00:22
Re: Creighton persists 681 Martin Stower 02-May-16 01:11
Re: Creighton persists 611 cladking 02-May-16 01:31
Re: Creighton persists 655 Martin Stower 02-May-16 20:03
Re: Creighton persists 629 cladking 03-May-16 00:50
Re: Creighton persists 600 Hanslune 03-May-16 06:00
Re: Creighton persists 574 Merrell 03-May-16 07:34
Re: Creighton persists 807 Origyptian 03-May-16 11:46
Re: Creighton persists 710 Martin Stower 03-May-16 14:01
Re: Creighton persists 773 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:55
Re: Creighton persists 683 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:54
Re: Creighton persists 692 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:49
Re: Creighton persists 703 Thanos5150 03-May-16 18:26
Re: Creighton persists 672 Origyptian 03-May-16 21:09
Re: Creighton persists 732 Martin Stower 03-May-16 22:56
Re: Creighton persists 656 Origyptian 04-May-16 03:52
Re: Creighton persists 620 Martin Stower 04-May-16 17:54
Re: Creighton persists 608 Origyptian 04-May-16 21:06
Re: Creighton persists 924 Martin Stower 04-May-16 22:28
Re: Creighton persists 630 Harte 06-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 595 Origyptian 06-May-16 13:04
Re: Creighton persists 546 Martin Stower 06-May-16 15:35
Re: Creighton persists 610 Harte 06-May-16 16:50
Re: Creighton persists 592 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 17:33
Re: Creighton persists 529 Audrey 06-May-16 20:00
Re: Creighton persists 835 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:25
Re: Creighton persists 610 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 20:48
Re: Creighton persists 650 Archae Solenhofen 06-May-16 22:30
Re: Creighton persists 553 Jon Ellison 06-May-16 23:37
Re: Creighton persists 586 Martin Stower 07-May-16 00:02
Re: Creighton persists 583 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 00:33
Re: Creighton persists 654 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 01:07
Re: Creighton persists 595 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 01:55
Re: Creighton persists 455 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:03
Re: Creighton persists 737 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:06
Re: Creighton persists 489 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 10:39
Re: Creighton persists 525 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 16:38
Re: Creighton persists 560 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:03
Some "Engineer" 937 DScribr 08-May-16 20:54
Re: Some "Engineer" 556 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:00
Re: Some "Engineer" 648 Audrey 08-May-16 21:15
Re: Some "Engineer" 646 DScribr 08-May-16 21:33
Re: Some "Engineer" 614 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:44
Re: Creighton persists 640 Audrey 07-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 569 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:16
Re: Creighton persists 586 Luminescence 08-May-16 01:52
Another "Impossibility" 584 DScribr 08-May-16 21:36
Re: Creighton persists 586 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:23
Re: Creighton persists 713 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 05:16
my mysterious balls 652 Audrey 07-May-16 06:42
Re: Creighton persists 499 Origyptian 07-May-16 15:51
Re: Creighton persists 533 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:12
Re: Creighton persists 470 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 17:23
Re: Creighton persists 597 Archae Solenhofen 07-May-16 17:53
Re: Creighton persists 532 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 18:40
Re: Creighton persists 563 Audrey 07-May-16 19:30
Re: Creighton persists 528 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 20:11
Re: Creighton persists 542 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 00:06
Re: Creighton persists 601 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 01:23
Re: Creighton persists 532 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 09:48
Re: Creighton persists 471 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:34
Re: Creighton persists 511 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 17:32
Re: Creighton persists 513 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:07
Re: Creighton persists 592 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:24
Re: Creighton persists 494 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 453 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 10:32
Re: Creighton persists 554 Origyptian 09-May-16 12:58
Re: Creighton persists 600 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:25
Re: Creighton persists 485 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 514 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:33
Re: Creighton persists 510 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:44
Re: Creighton persists 552 Origyptian 08-May-16 15:31
Re: Creighton persists 453 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 16:17
Failure to acept the facts persists 542 DScribr 08-May-16 22:11
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 602 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 22:26
Re: Failure to acept the facts persists 562 DScribr 09-May-16 00:29
Re: Creighton persists 521 Audrey 08-May-16 17:37
Re: Creighton persists 598 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 18:30
Re: Creighton persists 556 Audrey 08-May-16 18:52
Re: Creighton persists 627 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 20:13
Re: Creighton persists 509 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:20
Re: Creighton persists 555 Audrey 08-May-16 20:35
Re: Creighton persists 570 Archae Solenhofen 08-May-16 22:05
Re: Creighton persists 521 Audrey 08-May-16 23:05
Re: Creighton persists 515 Archae Solenhofen 09-May-16 00:11
Re: Creighton persists 574 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:35
Re: Creighton persists 474 Corpuscles 09-May-16 01:28
Re: Creighton persists 590 Origyptian 09-May-16 17:15
Re: Creighton persists 536 Corpuscles 09-May-16 19:40
Re: Creighton persists 491 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 20:02
Re: Creighton persists 544 Origyptian 09-May-16 21:25
Re: Creighton persists 638 Martin Stower 09-May-16 22:16
Re: Creighton persists 579 Origyptian 09-May-16 23:06
Re: Creighton persists 591 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:33
Re: Creighton persists 545 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:41
Re: Creighton persists 581 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 23:45
Re: Creighton persists 615 Martin Stower 09-May-16 23:58
Re: Creighton persists 514 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 01:05
Re: Creighton persists 549 Martin Stower 10-May-16 19:32
Re: Creighton persists 597 Origyptian 10-May-16 20:31
Re: Creighton persists 567 Martin Stower 10-May-16 20:45
What Standards? 469 DScribr 10-May-16 02:37
Re: Creighton persists 451 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 14:45
Re: Creighton persists 503 Origyptian 10-May-16 14:53
Re: Creighton persists 571 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 15:00
Re: Creighton persists 587 Audrey 11-May-16 00:53
Re: Creighton persists 631 Martin Stower 11-May-16 01:43
Also . . . 561 Martin Stower 11-May-16 09:19
Re: Creighton persists 562 Origyptian 11-May-16 03:14
Re: Creighton persists 723 Martin Stower 11-May-16 10:17
Re: Creighton persists 641 Corpuscles 11-May-16 10:53
Re: Vessel manufacture 738 Thanos5150 11-May-16 17:24
Re: Vessel manufacture 487 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 18:11
Re: Vessel manufacture 742 Thanos5150 11-May-16 19:30
Re: Vessel manufacture 494 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 454 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 508 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:36
Re: Vessel manufacture 530 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 486 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 487 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 529 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 498 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 428 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 486 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:02
Re: Vessel manufacture 559 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 442 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 471 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 592 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 508 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 494 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 21:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 461 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 458 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 477 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 421 Audrey 11-May-16 21:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 468 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 518 Origyptian 11-May-16 21:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 489 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 518 Origyptian 11-May-16 22:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 504 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 572 Audrey 11-May-16 21:56
Re: Vessel manufacture 454 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 441 Thanos5150 11-May-16 21:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 456 Audrey 11-May-16 22:40
Re: Vessel manufacture 447 Thanos5150 11-May-16 22:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 479 Audrey 11-May-16 23:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 475 Thanos5150 12-May-16 00:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 434 Corpuscles 12-May-16 00:41
Re: Vessel manufacture 512 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:13
Re: Vessel manufacture 520 Corpuscles 12-May-16 02:32
Re: Vessel manufacture 703 Thanos5150 12-May-16 06:10
Re: Vessel manufacture 557 Audrey 12-May-16 01:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 500 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 470 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 397 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 474 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:22
Re: Vessel manufacture 482 Jon Ellison 12-May-16 02:01
Re: Vessel manufacture 423 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:20
Re: Vessel manufacture 468 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 615 Martin Stower 12-May-16 13:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 520 Harte 12-May-16 22:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 460 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:38
Re: Vessel manufacture 457 Thanos5150 13-May-16 00:28
Re: Vessel manufacture 458 Audrey 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 713 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 400 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:19
Re: Vessel manufacture 464 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:26
Re: Vessel manufacture 491 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 492 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 20:42
Re: Vessel manufacture 437 Origyptian 11-May-16 20:48
Re: Vessel manufacture 608 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 595 Thanos5150 12-May-16 05:39
Re: Vessel manufacture 442 Corpuscles 12-May-16 08:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 452 DScribr 12-May-16 03:08
Re: Vessel manufacture 694 Audrey 11-May-16 19:55
Re: Vessel manufacture 517 Thanos5150 11-May-16 20:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 614 Origyptian 11-May-16 19:58
Re: Vessel manufacture 414 Corpuscles 11-May-16 23:25
Re: Vessel manufacture 467 Thanos5150 12-May-16 01:06
Re: Vessel manufacture 534 Audrey 12-May-16 01:47
Re: Vessel manufacture 438 Thanos5150 12-May-16 02:18
Re: Vessel manufacture 463 Martin Stower 13-May-16 00:03
Re: Vessel manufacture 536 Origyptian 12-May-16 02:34
Re: Vessel manufacture 479 Corpuscles 12-May-16 03:12
Re: Vessel manufacture 483 Thanos5150 12-May-16 04:05
Re: Vessel manufacture 463 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:23
Re: Vessel manufacture 522 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 467 Audrey 12-May-16 06:44
Re: Vessel manufacture 428 Origyptian 12-May-16 04:16
Re: Vessel manufacture 554 Corpuscles 12-May-16 04:52
Re: Vessel manufacture 489 Origyptian 12-May-16 13:35
Re: Vessel manufacture 475 Martin Stower 12-May-16 21:49
Re: Vessel manufacture 475 Origyptian 12-May-16 22:07
Re: Vessel manufacture 474 Martin Stower 12-May-16 23:15
Re: Vessel manufacture 582 Origyptian 13-May-16 03:46
Re: Vessel manufacture 466 Martin Stower 13-May-16 18:31
Re: Vessel manufacture 394 DScribr 12-May-16 02:58
Re: Creighton persists 467 Martin Stower 12-May-16 11:42
Re: Creighton persists 449 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 11:00
Re: Creighton persists 480 Audrey 11-May-16 15:55
Re: Creighton persists 507 Jon Ellison 11-May-16 16:39
Re: Creighton persists 519 Audrey 09-May-16 01:44
Re: Creighton persists 568 Merrell 08-May-16 20:16
Re: Creighton persists 547 Audrey 08-May-16 20:36
Re: Creighton persists 573 Merrell 08-May-16 21:07
Re: Creighton persists 452 Audrey 08-May-16 21:10
Re: Creighton persists 555 Merrell 08-May-16 21:38
Re: Creighton persists 514 Audrey 08-May-16 21:59
Re: Creighton persists 505 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:27
Re: Creighton persists 517 Audrey 08-May-16 21:34
Re: Creighton persists 408 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:07
Re: Creighton persists 544 Audrey 09-May-16 03:18
Re: Creighton persists 476 Origyptian 09-May-16 04:06
Re: Creighton persists 527 Audrey 09-May-16 05:07
Re: Creighton persists 539 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:06
Re: Creighton persists 537 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 12:00
Re: Creighton persists 423 Origyptian 09-May-16 13:17
Re: Creighton persists 500 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 13:29
Re: Creighton persists 476 DScribr 09-May-16 13:30
Re: Creighton persists 502 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:09
Re: Creighton persists 501 Origyptian 09-May-16 01:49
Re: Creighton persists 571 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:13
Re: Creighton persists 320 Origyptian 08-May-16 02:07
Re: Drill baby drill.... 591 Thunderbird 08-May-16 02:41
Re: Drill baby drill.... 749 Origyptian 08-May-16 03:23
Re: Drill baby drill.... 615 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 11:38
We've been thru this 100 times. 471 DScribr 09-May-16 00:41
Re: We've been thru this 100 times. 620 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 01:00
Re: Drill baby drill.... 761 Harte 08-May-16 19:35
Re: Drill baby drill.... 538 DScribr 09-May-16 00:45
Re: Drill baby drill.... 551 Origyptian 09-May-16 02:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 602 Thunderbird 08-May-16 19:41
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 571 Audrey 08-May-16 20:49
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 556 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 20:55
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 447 Audrey 08-May-16 21:09
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 441 Jon Ellison 08-May-16 21:14
Re: OK. ..let's do some flooring now 535 Audrey 08-May-16 21:22
Too much interpretation 483 DScribr 09-May-16 00:36
Re: Too much interpretation 448 Jon Ellison 09-May-16 00:41
Refusal Persists 462 DScribr 09-May-16 00:21
Re: Creighton persists 450 Audrey 07-May-16 02:02
Re: Creighton persists 549 Jon Ellison 07-May-16 02:55
Re: Creighton persists 560 Audrey 07-May-16 04:14
Re: Creighton persists 521 Origyptian 06-May-16 18:21
Re: Creighton persists 451 Audrey 06-May-16 19:03
Re: Creighton persists 608 Martin Stower 07-May-16 01:00
Re: Creighton persists 506 Origyptian 06-May-16 20:12
Logic rarely persists here. 580 DScribr 08-May-16 20:40
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 527 Corpuscles 08-May-16 21:51
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 548 Origyptian 09-May-16 03:20
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 508 Harte 09-May-16 21:18
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 526 DScribr 10-May-16 02:23
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 671 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:11
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 548 DScribr 10-May-16 03:38
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 575 Corpuscles 10-May-16 03:54
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 502 DScribr 10-May-16 13:42
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 581 Harte 10-May-16 10:03
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 504 Jon Ellison 10-May-16 10:06
Re: Logic rarely persists here. 440 Origyptian 10-May-16 11:28